Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 01-03-2007, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

Please read your bible:

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Please explain how someone who hanged himself can fell headlong.

He was hung upside down.

Sven · 01-03-2007, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdd344

It was God who said no man could see His face and live. It was God who said Moses could see whatever 'back' is on a Spirit being. It didn't have to be literally God. It could have easily been one of the many forms God used to appear to individuals, records of which are found in the OT.

Thus the passage which says that he saw him face to face is wrong. It's as simple as this. *shrug*

Sven · 01-03-2007, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

He was hung upside down.

No, no, he hung himself upside down! And as soon as he noticed that he does not die, he decided to cut the rope and fell headlong instead.

You've got one a new convert today! Congrats!

pharoah · 01-03-2007, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

He was hung upside down.

So he tied two ropes up in the air to a surface and then inserted his feet inside them? Why would he try to kill himself that way?

GakuseiDon · 01-03-2007, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

No, no, he hung himself upside down! And as soon as he noticed that he does not die, he decided to cut the rope and fell headlong instead.

Yep. And then a chariot ran over him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

You've got one a new convert today! Congrats!

I'm just a humble seeker of truth.

GakuseiDon · 01-03-2007, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

So he tied two ropes up in the air to a surface and then inserted his feet inside them? Why would he try to kill himself that way?

Well, you see, this represents a failure of imagination on your part. He was probably trying to ascend into the sublunar realm backwards. Crazy? Well, we just don't know how people thought in those days. It doesn't have to make sense to us! There is a tradition of Peter being crucified upside-down, and that is close enough. I can certainly show that there was a tradition of Peter being crucified upside-down, which is evidence towards my position. Refute me if you can.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-03-2007, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdd344

I wonder how many of you who are atheists have actually invested tons of time and hours and honest effort into studying what the Bible claims? I wonder how many religious people have?

Two people sat on a park bench. Both had jobs and were busy people. Neither had studied the Bible more than just on the surface over their 35 year life spans cumulatively.

1. One says, ' I have studied the Bible and I don't believe it, I am an atheist.'
2. The other says, 'I have studied the Bible and I believe it, I am a Christian.'

What is the difference? Nada. Neither have what they need to know what they believe and why, they merely are existing doing what they felt most comfortable doing. But in our world both, typically, will argue "to the death" if you will, about who they are and what they believe. That is where you get arguments based on one verse, or a few---on both sides.

Anyway, those are my thoughts as I read the posts you both wrote.

A problem with your analogy: the Bible does not exist in isolation. It is a compilation, part of a larger body of Middle-Eastern mythological books.

A true scholar would indeed study the Bible very carefully. But he'd also know about the Sumerian origins of the Flood story and the Biblical flat-Earth cosmology (which is explained in more detail in the Book of Enoch), and how "Adapa and the South Wind" was mangled in the "Forbidden Fruit" story, and he'd know about the Caananite polytheism (mentioned briefly here, but also explained in the Ugaritic texts: IIRC, it is from these that we know that YHWH was one of seventy sons of El)... and so forth.

Doug Shaver · 01-03-2007, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdd344

Regarding Judas. The Bible says he hung himself, and the Bible says he fell and burst open and stuff poured out.

You are assuming your conclusion, thus arguing in a circle. "The Bible" does not say anything. The men who wrote it said certain things. In the case of Judas' death, one man said one thing and another man said something entirely different.

Kosh · 01-03-2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

So he tied two ropes up in the air to a surface and then inserted his feet inside them? Why would he try to kill himself that way?

Actually, he was just trying to do some bungie cord jumping over his new property (which had a really cool ravine on it). So he "hung" himself with the bungie cords, and miscalculated the length, and bottomed out head first, thus spilling his guts. (truth be known, it was propabably God who magically changed the laws of physics so the cord would stretch more - that's the payment Judas got for doing that nasty deed that God subcontracted him to do!).

This is what mdd344 has taught me, you just add or delete information until it makes sense.:Cheeky:

mdd344 · 01-03-2007, 08:39 AM

Rex T,
You stated, "Here is the truth about god, NO ONE KNOWS."

But, do you know that to be true?

Particularly if no absolute truth exists, as you claimed?

The fact is that I am being held, at least in part, to a standard by those who do not believe the Bible that they themselves are not willing to meet.

That is why I get comments like "headlong" and people make fun of what happened to Judas. Even a bit of study in those areas would reveal what 'headlong' means (i.e. face first) and even a bit of study would reveal that of the two things mentioned to occur to Judas, both could have happened very easily and as such no contradiction exists.

Those who pick and choose their contradictions based on a surface reading are not reliable.

Others demonstrate that they have no knowledge of what 'inerrancy' means, presuming that every single word in the Bible is by itself true. The fact is that while the Bible as a whole is from God, there are parts God included that are lies, untruths, etc. For example, every time Satan speaks it is not truth. Yet, it is in the Bible and it is God's Word for God wanted it there. People in the Bible often felt one way (like Jacob mourned for Joseph and thought he was dead all those years) but the facts known to them later showed their entire feelings to be without purpose. Some have shown that they do not know the types of literature found in the Bible, particularly apocalyptic language.

Making fun as a form of refuting something is not a valid way to argue, but some here seem to think it is.

There may be some here who have really, really studied the Bible. I don't recall who I have talked to yet whom I would put in that category, and I don't recall even thinking along those lines anyway. But there are many whom I have seen, that obviously haven't studied, and who yet declare their "proof" that God doesn't exist by their use of the Bible. Such is like a man being commissioned by another to build a house, and he has zero building experience and doesn't even know what a hammer is. He might rant and rave for a long time about what he can do, and what he is doing, but in the end all he has built is a mess.

Regarding my comment to you, 'being led,' my meaning is this. A person, on his own, can study and understand the Bible. There is none of this hierarchy that some man must 'tell' others what it says and without such they cannot get it. That doesn't, however, exclude preaching, which God chose to spread the Gospel (1 Cor. 1:18-20). Preachers (evangelists) merely are those who spend their lives preaching the Gospel. Their message is not, 'listen to me and what I say,' it is 'listen to what God has said' and 'go check it out for yourself.'

I appreciate your thoughts and comments in your post btw.

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01-03-2007, 08:39 AM	#70
mdd344 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 402	Rex T, You stated, "Here is the truth about god, NO ONE KNOWS." But, do you know that to be true? Particularly if no absolute truth exists, as you claimed? The fact is that I am being held, at least in part, to a standard by those who do not believe the Bible that they themselves are not willing to meet. That is why I get comments like "headlong" and people make fun of what happened to Judas. Even a bit of study in those areas would reveal what 'headlong' means (i.e. face first) and even a bit of study would reveal that of the two things mentioned to occur to Judas, both could have happened very easily and as such no contradiction exists. Those who pick and choose their contradictions based on a surface reading are not reliable. Others demonstrate that they have no knowledge of what 'inerrancy' means, presuming that every single word in the Bible is by itself true. The fact is that while the Bible as a whole is from God, there are parts God included that are lies, untruths, etc. For example, every time Satan speaks it is not truth. Yet, it is in the Bible and it is God's Word for God wanted it there. People in the Bible often felt one way (like Jacob mourned for Joseph and thought he was dead all those years) but the facts known to them later showed their entire feelings to be without purpose. Some have shown that they do not know the types of literature found in the Bible, particularly apocalyptic language. Making fun as a form of refuting something is not a valid way to argue, but some here seem to think it is. There may be some here who have really, really studied the Bible. I don't recall who I have talked to yet whom I would put in that category, and I don't recall even thinking along those lines anyway. But there are many whom I have seen, that obviously haven't studied, and who yet declare their "proof" that God doesn't exist by their use of the Bible. Such is like a man being commissioned by another to build a house, and he has zero building experience and doesn't even know what a hammer is. He might rant and rave for a long time about what he can do, and what he is doing, but in the end all he has built is a mess. Regarding my comment to you, 'being led,' my meaning is this. A person, on his own, can study and understand the Bible. There is none of this hierarchy that some man must 'tell' others what it says and without such they cannot get it. That doesn't, however, exclude preaching, which God chose to spread the Gospel (1 Cor. 1:18-20). Preachers (evangelists) merely are those who spend their lives preaching the Gospel. Their message is not, 'listen to me and what I say,' it is 'listen to what God has said' and 'go check it out for yourself.' I appreciate your thoughts and comments in your post btw.

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