Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-13-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Australian archaeologist Kate da Costa of the University of Sydney, who works in northern Jordan where the cave was found, also said the evidence needs to be confirmed by other archaeologists. She noted, too, that St. Georgeous Church is not universally accepted as the oldest church in the world. Da Costa said a date of 230 for a constructed church "is over 200 years earlier than any other known church."

Cege · 06-14-2008, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But no photos yet of the mosiac.

This might show the inscription in the mosiac on the floor of St. Georgeous:

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/...7549150085.jpg

aa5874 · 06-14-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But no photos yet of the mosiac.

This might show the inscription in the mosiac on the floor of St. Georgeous:

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/...7549150085.jpg

Were the words "Jesus", "Jesus Christ", "Jesus the Son of God", "Jesus the Saviour" or any phrase with "Jesus" found n the mosaic inscription?

According to the link, the inscription has words that that say "the 70 beloved by God and the Divine", but I see nothing about Jesus.

And as far as I know, worshippers of God are not always followers of Jesus, especially in the 1st century.

Clivedurdle · 06-14-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Another skeptic

Quote:

Australian archaeologist Kate da Costa of the University of Sydney, who works in northern Jordan where the cave was found, also said the evidence needs to be confirmed by other archaeologists. She noted, too, that St. Georgeous Church is not universally accepted as the oldest church in the world. Da Costa said a date of 230 for a constructed church "is over 200 years earlier than any other known church."

Sorry?

No "constructed" churches until a 100 years after Constantine?

Cege · 06-14-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Were the words "Jesus", "Jesus Christ", "Jesus the Son of God", "Jesus the Saviour" or any phrase with "Jesus" found n the mosaic inscription?

According to the link, the inscription has words that that say "the 70 beloved by God and the Divine", but I see nothing about Jesus.

And as far as I know, worshippers of God are not always followers of Jesus, especially in the 1st century.

Good point. As far as I can tell from the news articles, the inscription makes no mention of Jesus.

I don't know what supposedly links St Georgeous to Christian believers and/or a Christian church.

I can only assume that the building's ruins don't reflect a synagogue structure. Does it reflect a 'pagan' worship structure?

Casper · 06-16-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

I can only assume that the building's ruins don't reflect a synagogue structure. Does it reflect a 'pagan' worship structure?

wasn't the word "synagogue" a Greek word and supposedly what was commonly used instead of "Church", or was that just a Marcionite naming convention?

Would there be much difference in structure between a christian "synagogue" and a Jewish "synagogue" circa 230CE? Or is that just a vernacular linguistic term and coincidence of the time and location?

Might sound stupid, I was just wondering.

Toto · 06-16-2008, 02:07 PM

A synagogue was a community meeting place for Jews. Christians mostly met in house churches before Constantine; Acts records Paul visiting synagogues to speak to Jews at a time when it is assumed that Jews and Christians were virtually indistinguishable.

The archeological excavations of 3rd century ruins at Dura-Europa contain a Hellenistic Jewish synagoge and what is presumed to be a Christian house church. The Synagogue is much more elaborate, with murals showing scenes from the Torah; the Christian church is smaller and plainer.

Toto · 06-16-2008, 04:03 PM

Critics dub worlds oldest church discovery ridiculous

Quote:

... Ghazi Bisheh, former director general of the Jordanian Department of Antiquities dubbed the claims as “ridiculous,” saying the archaeologist behind them “has a tendency to sensationalize discoveries” and offered no evidence to back his recent assertion.

...

“It sounds rather anachronistic,” National Geographic quoted Biblical scholar Stephen Pfann, president of the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, as saying.

...

“If they are talking about a cave, it could have been a hiding place. In time if there were martyrs there or something significant that took place there or a well-known individual who was among the disciples of Jesus then you would have had reason to commemorate the site, which could later be used by the church’s monks, he said.

“But the cave that’s there is one that doesn’t necessarily commemorate anything I don’t know how you can take an underground cave and say it could present itself as a first-century church,” he added.

sschlichter · 06-16-2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skunker

Nice pics! Of course, if I were a photographer, I'd want to get the best photos possible, and those pics did it. Thanks.

I know. this entire thread is cracking me up.

Toto · 06-18-2008, 02:59 PM

It's now official - this find has no possible credibility. Even Hershel Shanks casts doubt on it.

BAR: Oldest Church Found?

Quote:

Critics, however, have begun to question the identification of the cave as an early church; see BAR editor Hershel Shanks’ television interview, and also see http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ld-church.html .

From the latter link:

Quote:

A Jordanian archaeologist's announcement this week that he had uncovered the world's first Christian church in an underground cave drew surprise and skepticism from experts in Jordan and beyond.

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06-16-2008, 02:07 PM	#47
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	A synagogue was a community meeting place for Jews. Christians mostly met in house churches before Constantine; Acts records Paul visiting synagogues to speak to Jews at a time when it is assumed that Jews and Christians were virtually indistinguishable. The archeological excavations of 3rd century ruins at Dura-Europa contain a Hellenistic Jewish synagoge and what is presumed to be a Christian house church. The Synagogue is much more elaborate, with murals showing scenes from the Torah; the Christian church is smaller and plainer.

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