Freethought & Rationalism Archive

reniaa · 02-10-2008, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by scotsmanmatt1

As a further point, what makes torture wrong?

<snip>

Thanks
Matt

I think I am living in a nightmare. People in the same world as I don't really say this, do they? Even Rumsfeld went into denial. Or am I a victim of an interplanetary joke? I know I used to suffer from sleep paralysis and some pretty way-out interpretations of that experience years ago, but surely the internet is real, isn't it?

Matt, if you are a real person (sorry, I know I've had a whisky or two), I do hope you can drop by a bookstore and request "A Question of Torture" by McCoy some time, and after having read that explain to me in monosyllables anything or any situation that torture can justify.

Just to repeat this is not a parable advocating torture it's like the above poster using an example from the times they lived in that the people would understand the point which is how important forgiveness is....

This is another case of modern eyes looking back and twisting things! but I made the point because as "humanitarians" as we say we are now, our rulers haven't changed that much, the ugliness just more swept under the carpet so people can say i'm against it without applying the responsibility of their own democratically elected leaders on themselves.

spin · 02-10-2008, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

Just to repeat this is not a parable advocating torture it's like the above poster using an example from the times they lived in that the people would understand the point which is how important forgiveness is....

So according to you, despite the fact that the protagonist king unhesitatingly imposes torture on the bad guy (because the bad guy had done the same thing), the writers of the parable were not in favor of torture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

This is another case of modern eyes looking back and twisting things!

Yours.

The society of the time had no trouble with torture. The parable is a story of its time. It's just that you are squeamish looking at ancient standards with modern eyes, so you seek the apologetic course seen here to deal with your conflict.

spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

but I made the point because as "humanitarians" as we say we are now, our rulers haven't changed that much, the ugliness just more swept under the carpet so people can say i'm against it without applying the responsibility of their own democratically elected leaders on themselves.

andrewcriddle · 02-11-2008, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Does anyone doubt that if this parable were in the Koran it would be added to the list of other "offensive passages" posted on some websites?

Very likely it would.
Many of those websites show very little discrimination.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 02-11-2008, 04:08 AM

It may possibly be worth noting why (in the story logic) the unforgiving servant ends up being tortured at the end. It is so that his final situation should be worse than his prospective fate (sold into slavery) at the beginning.

He is already facing what amounts to utter ruin at the beginning, and so his final situation has to be very nasty indeed. Within the framework of a more or less realistic story of everyday life among tyrants and their dependents, this means he ends up getting tortured.

Andrew Criddle

Craigart14 · 02-11-2008, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reniaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

I think I am living in a nightmare. People in the same world as I don't really say this, do they? Even Rumsfeld went into denial. Or am I a victim of an interplanetary joke? I know I used to suffer from sleep paralysis and some pretty way-out interpretations of that experience years ago, but surely the internet is real, isn't it?

Matt, if you are a real person (sorry, I know I've had a whisky or two), I do hope you can drop by a bookstore and request "A Question of Torture" by McCoy some time, and after having read that explain to me in monosyllables anything or any situation that torture can justify.

Just to repeat this is not a parable advocating torture it's like the above poster using an example from the times they lived in that the people would understand the point which is how important forgiveness is....

This is another case of modern eyes looking back and twisting things! but I made the point because as "humanitarians" as we say we are now, our rulers haven't changed that much, the ugliness just more swept under the carpet so people can say i'm against it without applying the responsibility of their own democratically elected leaders on themselves.

Literary pieces generally have more than one valid interpretation. Literature is not a riddle with only one "right" answer. Sure, this parable is about forgiveness, but it also tells us plain as day that if you do not forgive people, God will torture you. You remember God, don't you? The God who so loved the world that he let homo sapiens suffer for 100,000 years before He lent us His son for the blink of an eye in order to redeem a handful of holier-than-thou sycophants? Or was the loan intended to reap a multitude of souls for eternal torment?

Craig

Craigart14 · 02-11-2008, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Message, medium, difficult to separate. Medium contains torture. Torture is integral to story. Torture is the "just dessert" of the bad guy. Justifies torture. End of discussion. Repeating message gets us nowhere. It was known before the thread started.

Please do not try to lecture people about morals. You do what you are told apparently by someone whose morals you are in no position to fathom.

Any morals you have have been taught to you despite your religious beliefs and you don't look closely at the morals that lie beneath the surface of the ancient religion you are here to disseminate. I doubt whether you'd be in favor of slavery though it is ingrained in the Hebrew bible and accepted as the way of the world in the christian literature. I doubt whether you'd advocate the stoning of children for whatever silly reason given in the Hebrew bible. Do you advocate the sexist values of the societies that produced the bible? I doubt it at least a little.

The morals you have aren't christian per se and have been instilled by your society and your parents' involvement in the society. Perhaps 150 years ago you would have supported slavery and used the bible to support your case. Perhaps 100 years ago you would have argued against women going to universities or getting the vote. Would you with your precursors have actively fought against any scientific development that questioned your dogma? Those developments eventually gave you refrigerators and cars, electricity and computers, space travel, America's political dominance in today's world.

Morality is not a realm of religion.

spin

The bible advocate the stoning of children? When? Are you refering to the cursing of parents? This is not directed towards children but adults. This law was established by God because Israel was a rebellious nation. This was done to try and prevent rebellion against authority. Spin you should know better than that...or maybe you really do not. The bible supports slavery? No it does not. Moses was allowing voluntary slavery and outlawed involuntary slavery....big difference. And what do cars and refrigerators have to do with
opposing science or are you really talking about Evolution. Or the Roman Catholics stand against such endeavers? America's political dominence in the world? Oh you mean like encouraging debt in third world countries and outright warefare against weaker nations? So then this dominence is of the morality of a non-christian origen nice spinny....nice. :wave:

Support for the idea that the Bible only endorses voluntary servitude?

Craig

Casper · 02-11-2008, 08:43 AM

Is the use of the English word "torture" here possibly causing more debate than it should?

I don't know, I don't read or speak greek. But I like to heed the advice I see so often in this forum about subconsciously transferring modern anglophonic pretenses that are ultimately unsupported.

WVIncagold · 02-11-2008, 09:12 AM

Seams to me Christians love torture. Isn't it the basis of their entire religion is based on their living embodiment of god was hung and tortured to death? They worship torture every Sunday so your surprised with the attitude? they wear torture devices around their neck. They kneel before a tortured man on a torture device. The parable no matter how you wish to interpret as a "good thing" is to teach eternal devotion that if your merciful, god will give you mercy if your not you do not deserve any and you shall be tortured for your transgressions. Wishing it to not condone torture is simply apologetics that the bible doesn't say what it means and doesn't mean what it says. Look how quickly some Xians salivate at the prospect of others being sent to hell for their eternal damnation.

Casper · 02-11-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Look how quickly some Xians salivate at the prospect of others being sent to hell for their eternal damnation.

Yet I am reminded of those who forsake so much to perform selfless missionary work. Obviously the verse, linguistics aside, can mean so many things in so many different contexts. All verses can. It does no good to project your own feelings into the mind of someone else, at least not without wearing your Karnack hat.

WVIncagold · 02-12-2008, 10:37 AM

It would be something if i needed a Karnack hat. the problem is i have met and discussed on this board and scene the righteous jubilation Xians take in others going to hell. In most church services i have attended it is met with a righteous Hallelujah! "AND THEY SHALL BE CAST INTO THE PITS OF HELL BROTHERS AND SISTERS" "HALLELUJAH!" simple observations leads me to develop more than an opinion. it is a major part of their doctrine. Call it what you will but what would you call it Casper when Xians take such pleasure in judging people into their hell?

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02-11-2008, 04:08 AM	#34
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	It may possibly be worth noting why (in the story logic) the unforgiving servant ends up being tortured at the end. It is so that his final situation should be worse than his prospective fate (sold into slavery) at the beginning. He is already facing what amounts to utter ruin at the beginning, and so his final situation has to be very nasty indeed. Within the framework of a more or less realistic story of everyday life among tyrants and their dependents, this means he ends up getting tortured. Andrew Criddle

02-11-2008, 08:43 AM	#37
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	Is the use of the English word "torture" here possibly causing more debate than it should? I don't know, I don't read or speak greek. But I like to heed the advice I see so often in this forum about subconsciously transferring modern anglophonic pretenses that are ultimately unsupported.

02-11-2008, 09:12 AM	#38
WVIncagold Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: West Virginina Posts: 4,349	Seams to me Christians love torture. Isn't it the basis of their entire religion is based on their living embodiment of god was hung and tortured to death? They worship torture every Sunday so your surprised with the attitude? they wear torture devices around their neck. They kneel before a tortured man on a torture device. The parable no matter how you wish to interpret as a "good thing" is to teach eternal devotion that if your merciful, god will give you mercy if your not you do not deserve any and you shall be tortured for your transgressions. Wishing it to not condone torture is simply apologetics that the bible doesn't say what it means and doesn't mean what it says. Look how quickly some Xians salivate at the prospect of others being sent to hell for their eternal damnation.

02-12-2008, 10:37 AM	#40
WVIncagold Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: West Virginina Posts: 4,349	It would be something if i needed a Karnack hat. the problem is i have met and discussed on this board and scene the righteous jubilation Xians take in others going to hell. In most church services i have attended it is met with a righteous Hallelujah! "AND THEY SHALL BE CAST INTO THE PITS OF HELL BROTHERS AND SISTERS" "HALLELUJAH!" simple observations leads me to develop more than an opinion. it is a major part of their doctrine. Call it what you will but what would you call it Casper when Xians take such pleasure in judging people into their hell?

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