Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 09-21-2011, 07:23 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Are you trying to impress the ladies?

You are an HJer?? HJers are engaged in absurdities to support THEIR HJ of Nazareth.

Over 2000 years of glorious history and an explanation for it. You are a bad looser

Sheshbazzar · 09-21-2011, 07:34 AM

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Originally Posted by gurugeorge

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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

A visit to any fundamentalist church will net a dozen or more cock-and-bull 'miraculous' religious stories that the claimants are willing to swear to be absolutely true accounts of their personal religious experiences. But what does that have to do with reality or with actual history other than displaying a group reinforced mental aberration? Am I to believe and give credence to the those tales told to me by old Jacob, of Jebus Christ sitting down beside him on a stump and conversing with him while he was out hunting? Or believe and repeat as being a 'historical' fact that Jebus Christ miraculously appeared and levitated old Jake out of a river, thus saving him from drowning? Or that a living, physical Jebus Christ did actually materialize and take over the steering wheel of old Jake's automobile, yet again saving old Jake's hide? ('course they still hit a tree....apparently Jebus Christ wasn't much better of a driver than old Jake) Seriously, these are samples of the type of Christian 'testimonies' that I have heard first hand from a believer that I have known all of my life, and whom having repeated them so often, quite succeeded in convincing himself that his accounts are exactly what happened. When I read 'Paul's' stories it all comes across as equally hokey 'witnessing', although somewhat 'doctored up' by his continuators for mass consumption. I don't-cannot- accept or believe these 'testimonies' by old Jake (and his ilk) Why should I give any credence to the religious claims of 'Paul' (or those pseudo-'Paul's' who invented additional tales in his name)??? 'Paul' according to his own accounts in the NT, never once met or even laid eyes any flesh and blood living Jebus the Christ, only 'visions' and claims of holding conversations with an dead and long departed stranger, and 'miracle' stories that are the basis of all of 'Paul's' 'testimonies'. 'Paul' has no more credibility than old Jake or any other religiously infected person who invents such tales and convinces himself of them.

You don't have to accept them as objective evidence, but you can accept them heterophenomenologically - as sincere reports of subjective experience. Whether they are then, further, objective evidence, depends on Humean tests, and that we haven't yet been able to get from any religion or anything woo-woo. But such experiences aren't that difficult to obtain for yourself - and you will see that it's quite possible for someone who's poorly educated and/or not very well trained in logic, to believe that what they are seeing is real. Sure, sometimes people play up, or perpetrate fraud. But to condemn every religious founder who has ever lived as a liar about their own experiences, or completely mad, is a step I'm unwilling to take. That options is far more implausible than the option that there are just simply things the brain does under certain conditions that produce real-seeming visions - especially nowadays, as science is starting to get a handle on such phenomena.

Fine. but I'm not about to accept these loo loos 'sincere reports of subjective experiences' or insane 'visions' of zombie gods as comprising any real 'history'.
Or willingly kow-tow to their continual attempts to insert this insane and false drivel into our educational system or manipulate our political system to lend its tall tales any air of credibility.
I strenuously object to allowing the religiously deceived and deceiving to distort history with their fables and influence public policy into the service of their own insane religiously motivated agendas.
These Fundies would love to accomplish dragging all of us into a self-fulfilling worldwide conflagration so that their religious visions required 'Third Temple' can be built on the blood of countless millions

aa5874 · 09-21-2011, 07:35 AM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

...Perhaps so, however in the case of the gospels, a much more plausible solution is that we are dealing with literary events as the solution for the miracle stories, based on the actual evidence, (literary borrowing, etc).

Again, this is NOT really relevant.

The QUEST for the "historical Jesus" has IDENTIFIED the Jesus of the NT as the Jesus of Faith.

Whether the miracles in the NT did or did NOT happen is really irrelevant.

HJers are claiming that there was or most likely was an "historical Jesus" of Nazareth.

HJers are claiming that HJ of Nazareth is the most likely explanation but have FAILED to provide any SOURCES that IDENTIFIED THEIR HJ of NAZARETH.

Whether or NOT people BELIEVE the Bible is NOT the issue.

The issue is that HJers are asserting that THEIR HJ of Nazareth is the best explanation but HAVE NOTHING, NO SOURCES of antiquity.

gurugeorge · 09-21-2011, 07:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Are you trying to impress the ladies?

You are an HJer?? HJers are engaged in absurdities to support THEIR HJ of Nazareth.

Over 2000 years of glorious history and an explanation for it. You are a bad looser

The "2000 years of glorious history" are about the god-man, the Jesus of faith, not some dude hypothesized as the root of the god-man myth - this latter is the "historical Jesus", the only Jesus that can be sought by rational means.

There's no "2000" years of glorious history ABOUT "some dude who accidentally got turned into a god", but this is the HJ hypothesis, as discussed on these boards.

Haven't you been paying attention?

aa5874 · 09-21-2011, 07:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Are you trying to impress the ladies?

You are an HJer?? HJers are engaged in absurdities to support THEIR HJ of Nazareth.

Over 2000 years of glorious history and an explanation for it. You are a bad looser

You are an HJer???

HJers are engaged in STRAWMAN arguments.

Iskander · 09-21-2011, 07:45 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Over 2000 years of glorious history and an explanation for it. You are a bad looser

You are an HJer???

HJers are engaged in STRAWMAN arguments.

I am not arguing. Are you?

Iskander · 09-21-2011, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Over 2000 years of glorious history and an explanation for it. You are a bad looser

The "2000 years of glorious history" are about the god-man, the Jesus of faith, not some dude hypothesized as the root of the god-man myth - this latter is the "historical Jesus", the only Jesus that can be sought by rational means.

There's no "2000" years of glorious history ABOUT "some dude who accidentally got turned into a god", but this is the HJ hypothesis, as discussed on these boards.

Haven't you been paying attention?

Yes, I have

Sheshbazzar · 09-21-2011, 07:52 AM

"2000 years of glorious history"..... of spreading ignorance, hatred, and blood and guts across the globe in the name of Jebus.

Iskander · 09-21-2011, 07:54 AM

Evolution has a lot to answer for, you are right.

gurugeorge · 09-21-2011, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Over 2000 years of glorious history and an explanation for it. You are a bad looser

The "2000 years of glorious history" are about the god-man, the Jesus of faith, not some dude hypothesized as the root of the god-man myth - this latter is the "historical Jesus", the only Jesus that can be sought by rational means.

There's no "2000" years of glorious history ABOUT "some dude who accidentally got turned into a god", but this is the HJ hypothesis, as discussed on these boards.

Haven't you been paying attention?

Yes, I have

So do you think there was some dude who accidentally got turned into a god? If so, where is the evidence for that fellow?

Bearing in mind that the entire NT Canon is based around (purportedly) eyewitness evidence for the Jesus of faith - a divine being incarnate?

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09-21-2011, 07:52 AM	#198
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	"2000 years of glorious history"..... of spreading ignorance, hatred, and blood and guts across the globe in the name of Jebus.

09-21-2011, 07:54 AM	#199
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	Evolution has a lot to answer for, you are right.

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