Naked Ape

Speaking of evidentiary but not conclusive: LSD and Psilocybin/Psilocin (Magic) Mushrooms are other good ways to get your required daily allowance of OBEs. These will allow you to see things that no-one else can see, and my allow you to believe that you can do things that no-one else can do. These visions and beliefs, while "real" in the sense that you are having them, are often not an accurate refection of reality.
(At least I think I remember that from my hippie days. ) Note to kiddies: don't try this at home.
If you have ever spoken to people who have taken a boatload of hallucinogenics, you will notice that they seem to be profoundly changed by the affair too. (Although not in what is usually considered to be a good way.)
If you mean an out-of-body experience that was not caused by recreational pharmaceuticals? Then, no.
Did these experiences happen outside the confines of my skull? Not really, but they sure seemed real at the time.

Cheers,

Naked Ape

Fortuna

Naked Ape,

Technically Psilocybin/Psilocin from Cubinesis are natural tryptamines, while LSD is a semi-synthetic tryptamine. Technically, they are not considered
as disassociatives but hallucinogenics. But, given the diverse mixture of Psilocybin/Psilocin and amine analog soup in cubinesis that the so-called naturalists tout (not to mention traces of bovine alimentary chems and enteric bacteria), it is possible that it could have the disassociative effect also. Variations in content are reported by locale and season. But I digress. as I was speaking more of those amines that have very definite disassociative effects, sometimes accompanied by some mild hallucinagenic effects.

I agree with you inthat all that changes is your perception of the reality around you, due to their effects on both peripheral and CNS neurochemistry. There are those who would argue that it actually tunes one to an alternate reality, a point with which I disagree. I actually once read a poster state that that while under the influence of tryptamines,"God was downloading information to him". (He was being serious too)

AFAIC whether you use certain chems medicinally or recreationally is up to you. Not my business. But, I also agree with you that the english slang term "burnout" seems appropo in reference to those who did do too many. It seems that they are not without serious side-effects.

As I stated earlier, I have personally only used 1 synthetic and one semi-synthetic PEA, twice in total , and they are powerful experiences, and definitely not recommended for certain personality types. (Attn any John Q Laws reading this - not only is the statue of limitations expired for these events, but they were designer PEAs which were not even illegal at that time, as they were unknown). But after Dr Shulgin let the cats out of the bag, the analog law got passed and now all of 'em and their analogs are schedule 1.( Kiddies, dont even think you can get away with converting mescalline to its propyl analog, nowadays, in the USA all the designers, even the flouro PEA variations are sched 1 by the analog act).

In any case, thank you for helping me make the case. The mere fact that an OBE CAN be chemically induced and is repeatable, is strong, but not absolutely conclusive evidence that OBEs are nuerochemical.

However, some claim they have had OBEs without the aid of chems.
As stated earlier, IMHO OBEs that result from NDEs are likely attributable to neurochemical action. But, my critics are correct inthat it is not proveable. And like Epictitus (our resident stoic) I sometimes find myself wanting to believe it.

whichphilosophy

Having not taken drugs though discussed this with those who had, the OBEs at the time were pretty disorientating on top of the drug created confusion and were often followed by a very low downers. You may be able to relate to this more.

Regards,

OdysseusTheInnkeeper

For someone who experiences post-traumatic stress, there is an awful sense of not really being 'there' and simultaneously being hyper-vigilant. Your senses and your body are numb and not working in an optimal way, while awareness is heightened. In a way you feel trapped in your own body and 'at effect'. If you have dreams of being an artist or an engineer or a doctor, they remain only that- dreams that are never realized, only partly so. Its not an 'out of body' experience, but existing as a physical person whose behaviours and feeling and thoughts and communications are no longer presentations of the 'real you'
Sincerely, Odysseus :huh: :banghead:

Corona688

All right. That should be easy enough to demonstrate -- show me the universe acting contrary to material law. What things have volition, and what things do not? Humans? Apes? Chimpanzees? Monkeys? Squirrels? Fish? Worms? Where is the dividing line, and why? You'll probably need to define 'volition' for this. Close, but not quite. Mental processes ARE physiological processes. Not exactly. It doesn't say outright 'there is no soul', but it certainly suggests that souls aren't necessary. There is a direct correlation between physical things that happen in our brains and our thoughts and actions. Physical reality appears sufficient to explain things, as is -- not ruling out anything that'd throw this model for a loop, but I haven't seen such things yet. Why presuppose anything invisible and incorporeal that explains nothing? Of course. What else is there? Very smug for someone who hasn't got one bit of supporting evidence for anything they've said.

Cojana

Members familiar with 'Mitosis' will immidietly redicule or stay silent because 'Here I is again,! but for the new participants ; my OBE was not an obe it was an WTB, ie, whithing two bodies, after a brief fainting spell, I awoke to find myself looking at myself,simultaneously, I found I had split in two seperate antities,with the same mind in both, I looked at myself eyeball to eyeball, I can still do it in my mind, its awesome, please, I've heard all the redicule and disparagement everywhich way, can you please use your intellect to somehow explain my experience, if ye can,! I was 17,first try on weed, 4 tokes worth thats all ,!!! :huh:

whichphilosophy

It's up to you if you feel this was an OBE. Different people have different experiences and disorientation is not uncommon.

Uncle Ants

Maybe it was bloody good weed :Cheeky:

Naked Ape

Uh, well drugs have been known to cause mistaken perceptions, and you were on drugs, what's to explain? I once thought that I was melting into the grass I was sitting on, it turns out that I wasn't after all, but at the time it sure seemed real. (That's why I haven't done acid in the last twenty years, it was more weird than fun.)

Cheers,

Naked Ape

Cojana

I know my experience are dismissed as far fetched, expecially by individuals with drugs in their resumme, I do shock individuals into angry fits of distress,the one qwhom really listen and try to fathom my remarks as truth, I just can 't get anyone to believe 'I can close my eyes, and see my eyes with my eyes,! ThAnk you Lord,! thank you 'Chance' helliluyah.!! 'ICMI' :thumbs: