Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-19-2005, 01:23 PM

Here we go again.

Vatican Archeologists discover Paul's tomb

Quote:

The discovery was made by a team composed exclusively of experts from the Vatican Museum. They had undertaken their exploration in response to a request from the administrator of St. Paul's basilica, Archbishop Francesco Gioia. During the Jubilee Year 2000, the archbishop noticed that thousands of pilgrims were inquiring about the location of St. Paul's tomb. The excavation effort was guided by 19th-century plans for the basilica, which was largely rebuilt after a devastating fire in 1823.

An initial survey enabled archeologists to reconstruct the shape of the original basilica, built early in the 4th century. A second excavation, under the main altar of the basilica, brought the Vatican team to the sarcophagus, which was located on what would have been ground level for the original 4th-century building.

Under the altar a marble plaque was still visible, dating back to the 4th century, and bearing the inscription: "Apostle Paul, martyr." Filippi remarks that surprisingly, "Nobody ever thought to look behind that plaque." When the Vatican team looked, they found the sarcophagus.

New Advent says:

Quote:

There is no doubt where the bodies [or St Peter and St Paul] now are -- in the tombs of the Vatican and the Ostian Way respectively -- but there is another tomb at the Catacombs of S. Sebastiano which also claims the honour of having at one time received them, and the question is as to the period at which this episode occurred, and whether there was only one or a double translation of the relics. Whatever conclusion we come to, we shall have to discard, or at least to explain away, some of the evidence which exists.

. . .

We have definite evidence of the existence of these tombs (trophoea) in these places as early as the beginning of the second century, in the words of the priest Caius (Euseb., "Hist. Eccl.", II, 28). These tombs were the objects of pilgrimage during the ages of persecution, and it will be found recorded in the Acts of several of the martyrs that they were seized while praying at the tombs of the Apostles. For two centuries the relics were same enough in these tombs, public though they were, for the respect entertained by the Romans for any place where the dead were buried preserved them from any danger of sacrilege. In the year 258, however, this protection was withdrawn. Christians from henceforth were specially excepted from the privilege which they had previously enjoyed on account of the use they had made of it to enable them to carry on religious worship. Hence it became necessary to remove the sacred relics of the two great Apostles in order to preserve them from possible outrage. They were removed secretly by night and hidden in the Catacombs of S. Sebastiano, though, probably the fact of their removal was known to very few, and the great body of Roman Christians believed them still to rest in their original tombs. At a later date, when the persecution was less acute, they were brought back again to the Vatican and the Via Ostiana respectively.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-19-2005, 02:14 PM

It appears that it was at least venerated as Paul's tomb in the 4th century....the key words being "in the 4th century"

Amaleq13 · 02-19-2005, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Advent

These tombs were the objects of pilgrimage during the ages of persecution, and it will be found recorded in the Acts of several of the martyrs that they were seized while praying at the tombs of the Apostles.

Anybody know the specific location of this reference?

Toto · 02-19-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Anybody know the specific location of this reference?

First google hit:

St. Sebastian

Quote:

St. Zoe was first apprehended, praying at St. Peter's tomb on the feast of the apostles. She was stifled with smoke, being hung by the heels over a fire. Tranquillinus, ashamed to be less courageous than a woman, went to pray at the tomb of St. Paul, and was seized by the populace and stoned to death

This allegedly happened in 286; it's not clear when the Acts of St Sebastian were written, but probably around 400 CE

Amaleq13 · 02-19-2005, 03:46 PM

Oh, I thought it referred to the book of Acts in the Christian Bible. Never mind.

badger3k · 02-19-2005, 05:28 PM

This is the same as the "John the Baptist" cave, where things centuries later were used as "proof". The same as a lot of other relics and holy sites, which seem to have that claim because somebody at a later time said that's what they were.

Kosh · 02-19-2005, 05:53 PM

Quote:

We shall have to discard, or at least to explain away, some of the evidence which exists.

But which evidence to discard?

Oh silly me, that evidence which contradicts the Bible, of course!

rlogan · 02-19-2005, 06:23 PM

Someone put on some popcorn. Ought to be a good show.

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02-19-2005, 02:14 PM	#2
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	It appears that it was at least venerated as Paul's tomb in the 4th century....the key words being "in the 4th century"

02-19-2005, 03:46 PM	#5
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Oh, I thought it referred to the book of Acts in the Christian Bible. Never mind.

02-19-2005, 05:28 PM	#6
badger3k Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Killeen, TX Posts: 1,388	This is the same as the "John the Baptist" cave, where things centuries later were used as "proof". The same as a lot of other relics and holy sites, which seem to have that claim because somebody at a later time said that's what they were.

02-19-2005, 06:23 PM	#8
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Someone put on some popcorn. Ought to be a good show.

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