Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 01-26-2008, 02:24 PM

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1.Who really made this so-called prediction, Jesus or the author ?

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Jesus.

I think it was the author. I have not been able to confirm that there was a Jesus of the NT who lived.

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2.When was this so-called prediction written for the first time?

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

It may have been written earlier, but the gospel of Mark is the earliest extant text that contains the failed prophecy, and it is dated to be around 50 CE.

I don't know but maybe late first century, after Antiquities of the Jews, or later. I think the author Mark got the story of John the Baptist from Josephus.

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3. When did an audience first learn of this so-called prediction?

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

When Jesus spoke it, probably around 30 CE.

Again, mabye late first century or after. The writings of Philo of Alexandria do not contain anything about Jesus Christ, or his disciples or make reference to any scriptures in the NT. Philo did not appear to have even realized that the Messiah had already come and died and made a failed prediction of his second coming.

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4. What year did Jesus of Nazareth exist?

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The early first century CE.

I don't think that year has arrived yet. It appears that no known historian wrote about his existence in the first century, except for forgeries, of course.

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5. When did Jesus actually start a religion?

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The early first century CE.

I am not aware that Jesus actually started any religion, maybe it was Simon the Magician, according to Justin Martyr, there were probably hundreds of thousands of Christians whose God was Simon of Gitto, and was honoured with a statue bearing the inscription "Simoni Deo Sancto", "To Simon the Holy God" .

Or perhaps by people who appeared to believe in God only, not Jesus in any way, and calling themselves the "Annointed ones" which when translated from Greek means "the Christians, as reported by Theophilus of Antioch.

Theophilus to Autolycus XII

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...Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God.

I just can't find any history for Jesus, believed to be the Son of a god and the crucified Messiah, external of the NT.

ApostateAbe · 01-26-2008, 03:07 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

1.Who really made this so-called prediction, Jesus or the author ?

I think it was the author. I have not been able to confirm that there was a Jesus of the NT who lived.

I don't know but maybe late first century, after Antiquities of the Jews, or later. I think the author Mark got the story of John the Baptist from Josephus.

Again, mabye late first century or after. The writings of Philo of Alexandria do not contain anything about Jesus Christ, or his disciples or make reference to any scriptures in the NT. Philo did not appear to have even realized that the Messiah had already come and died and made a failed prediction of his second coming.

I don't think that year has arrived yet. It appears that no known historian wrote about his existence in the first century, except for forgeries, of course.

I am not aware that Jesus actually started any religion, maybe it was Simon the Magician, according to Justin Martyr, there were probably hundreds of thousands of Christians whose God was Simon of Gitto, and was honoured with a statue bearing the inscription "Simoni Deo Sancto", "To Simon the Holy God" .

Or perhaps by people who appeared to believe in God only, not Jesus in any way, and calling themselves the "Annointed ones" which when translated from Greek means "the Christians, as reported by Theophilus of Antioch.

Theophilus to Autolycus XII

Quote:

...Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God.

I just can't find any history for Jesus, believed to be the Son of a god and the crucified Messiah, external of the NT.

I wrote another thread having in mind what you speculate about Josephus. Here it is:
http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=235435

itsamysteryhuh · 01-26-2008, 03:41 PM

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Originally Posted by spin

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Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

Did the stories of Robin Hood also contain things like, say, prophecies?

This is irrelevant. (You're good at irrelevances.)

The analogy is difficult for you, apparently because the historical problems of each have not been considered by you at all. Reports of Robin Hood and linguistically related terms go back to the 1200s. There were no scribes with vested interests in Robin Hood, so texts won't have been manipulated as those for Jesus. (Every scholar and his dog accepts that at least part of the Testamentum Flavium has been touched up.)

I see no way historically for one to show either that there was or was not a Robin Hood. That's a situation where there are no beliefs to fall over. With Jesus however, with just as much historical evidence, ie none, people are so willing to commit either way. The analogy asks people to see reason and be consistent in historical method.

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Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

In addition, I think most would agree that the Bible is a much more complex book than any stories written about Robin Hood.

Doh! Yet another irrelevance.

spin

Wow, it's like you're always here (?). Anyway, people aren't perfect, spin (re: interpretations and such).

Johnny Skeptic · 01-26-2008, 03:47 PM

Message to itsamysteryhuh: Please read my post #182 in a thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...65#post5116765 and let me know what you think of it at that thread.

aa5874 · 01-26-2008, 03:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

This is the problem with the question, and this is why Doherty frames it as a question of whether Christianity started with a human founder.

If you will accept any person of the era, whatever lack of correspondence with the gospels, as the "historical Jesus," it is fairly easy to say that such a person probably existed. But this reduces the question to an insignificant one. The more interesting question is how did Christianity start? With a charismatic, self-sacrificing individual? With a borderline psychotic individual? Or with a spiritual myth preached by diaspora Jews who represented the nation of Isreal crushed by the Roman Empire? Or something else?

I am not voting in this poll.

But the question is not how Christianity started, the poll is asking whether you consider the Jesus of the NT as an actual human.

The authors presented Jesus as living from around 6 CE to 33 CE, and they portrayed Jesus as probably the most charismatic and controversial person, even believing he was the Son of God.

Now if such a person lived I expect historians to write about him, however, no extant writings of credible historians contain any thing about him. No known historian made mention of seeing Jesus of Nazareth, any where in Galilee, Jerusalem, in any synagogue, with any followers, attempting to heal anyone, on a cross or know of his teachings.

If Josephus could have written about Judas the Galilean or Jesus the son of Annanas, the loner and declared madman, who only shouted "Woe unto Jerusalem",(WJ 6), then I think, if Jesus was actual human and did have a phenomenal impact, theological and social, on Judaea, at least Philo and Josephus would have noticed and have written about him. These writers do not reflect the events and character called Jesus of the NT.

I can find no evidence in history that such a person existed, or had any effect on Judaea in1st century, therefore it is reasonable to consider him non-existant.

ApostateAbe · 01-26-2008, 05:13 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by Toto

This is the problem with the question, and this is why Doherty frames it as a question of whether Christianity started with a human founder.

If you will accept any person of the era, whatever lack of correspondence with the gospels, as the "historical Jesus," it is fairly easy to say that such a person probably existed. But this reduces the question to an insignificant one. The more interesting question is how did Christianity start? With a charismatic, self-sacrificing individual? With a borderline psychotic individual? Or with a spiritual myth preached by diaspora Jews who represented the nation of Isreal crushed by the Roman Empire? Or something else?

I am not voting in this poll.

But the question is not how Christianity started, the poll is asking whether you consider the Jesus of the NT as an actual human.

The authors presented Jesus as living from around 6 CE to 33 CE, and they portrayed Jesus as probably the most charismatic and controversial person, even believing he was the Son of God.

I am not asking whether you consider the Jesus of the NT to be an actual human. I am asking, "Was Jesus ever an actual human being?" The implication is that the character may have evolved. The myths that made him more godlike are not relevant to the question.

mountainman · 01-26-2008, 05:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Antipope Innocent II

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Originally Posted by spin

The total lack of historical sources for the Jesus of the gospels makes getting more definite impossible. But something started christianity. It coulda bin Jesus.

I just agreed with every word in a post by spin. Now that's a miracle.

It is actually since IMO spin appears to act like the ancient chinese
temple builder who purposefully leaves an imperfection in
every structure, so as to purposefully not compete in
issues of perfection with the (ancient chinese) gods.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

mountainman · 01-26-2008, 05:43 PM

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I am not asking whether you consider
the Jesus of the NT to be an actual human.

I am asking, "Was Jesus ever
an actual human being?"

I appreciate the distinction.
Good question AAbe.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

joedad · 01-26-2008, 06:14 PM

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But the question is not how Christianity started, the poll is asking whether you consider the Jesus of the NT as an actual human.

The authors presented Jesus as living from around 6 CE to 33 CE, and they portrayed Jesus as probably the most charismatic and controversial person, even believing he was the Son of God.

I am not asking whether you consider the Jesus of the NT to be an actual human. I am asking, "Was Jesus ever an actual human being?" The implication is that the character may have evolved. The myths that made him more godlike are not relevant to the question.

I guess your asking, “Is NT Jesus a euhemerism?” That would be like asking, “Is mythical Pegasus a euhemerism?” So even though I voted “no” I could answer “maybe” to that one.

HJers should be asking, “Even though NT Jesus is clearly fictional, what do you think is the inspiration for GMark and the writings of Paul?”

ApostateAbe · 01-26-2008, 06:42 PM

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Originally Posted by joedad

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I am not asking whether you consider the Jesus of the NT to be an actual human. I am asking, "Was Jesus ever an actual human being?" The implication is that the character may have evolved. The myths that made him more godlike are not relevant to the question.

I guess your asking, “Is NT Jesus a euhemerism?” That would be like asking, “Is mythical Pegasus a euhemerism?” So even though I voted “no” I could answer “maybe” to that one.

HJers should be asking, “Even though NT Jesus is clearly fictional, what do you think is the inspiration for GMark and the writings of Paul?”

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Jesus is a euhemerism. There are discernable elements of original and historically accurate material in the New Testament, and it has not been completely corrupted by myth.

View Poll Results: Was Jesus ever an actual human being?
Yes	45	20.93%
No	78	36.28%
Maybe	84	39.07%
Other	8	3.72%
Voters: 215. You may not vote on this poll

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01-26-2008, 03:47 PM	#74
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to itsamysteryhuh: Please read my post #182 in a thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...65#post5116765 and let me know what you think of it at that thread.

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