Chili

Because Matthew is the guide first and liar in retrospect needed to betray NT Catholics in the same way that Judas betrayed OT Jews.

Take a good look at Acts 1:16 where Peter claimed that Judas was needed to convict Jesus: "Brothers, [Peter] said, "the saying of scripture uttered long ago by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of David was destined to be fulfilled in Judas, the one who guided those that arrested Jesus."

Then "Let his encampment be desolate, may no one dwell on it" means that Judas was just a player in the game but needed to be there and therefore Matthew was chosen to become the villian in Catholicism. Did they not chose Matthew over Justus to paint him a liar from the onset? (I even think the prayed about it, did they not?).

Chili

Easy, in drinking the cup of Gods wrath to our own measure of strength.

John A. Broussard

I agree. It's very likely that there were individuals who rejected the standard notion of hell back in the 14th century, but weren't about to risk their lives by voicing their opinion.

So there are some advantages to living in a Western country in this day and age. You might not get elected to any political office if you don't tow the official Christian line, but you aren't too likely to be burnt at the stake for your unorthodoxy.

dancer_rnb

Also, it wouldn't be just their bodies that would be burned. Any writings they made would also have a good chance of being destroyed. How much do we know of Good Christian (Cathar) beliefs nowadays?

Chili

Good Christian Cathars? Could they write or were they just loud Jesus worshipers?

Orthodox_Freethinker

Given that the Christian faith was founded in the East and is therefore an Eastern religion, you will not find the proper understanding of Christian theology from either the Roman Catholics nor the Protestants.
In the longstanding and ancient theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church, you will find a much different picture of the afterlife:

"Hell is not so much a place where God imprisons humans, as a place where humans, by misusing their free will, choose to imprison themselves. And even in hell the wicked are not deprived of the love of God, but by their own choice they experience as suffering what the saints experience as joy. 'The love of God will be an intolerable torment for those who have no acquired it within themselves.'
Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God. It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconcilation of all without exception. 'What is a merciful heart?' asked Isaac the Syrian. 'It is a heart that burns with love for the whole of Creation, for humans, for the birds, for the beasts, for the demons, for all creatures.'
Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the devil."
Bishop Timothy Ware, The Orthodox Church

"There is no "place" of torment, or even a "place" apart from God, because there is no "place" at all; you are outside of time and space. The "place" is actually a condition of either punishment ("hell") or paradise ("heaven") depending on how you experience the presence of God and His Uncreated Engergies.

Consider a person who hates God, and anything to do with religion, and has done nothing but pursued his own self-centered desires all his life. It would be far more terrifying, and painful, to spend eternity in the fiery embrace of God's almighty and divine love with no escape, than to be far from Him.

Experiencing God's presence and His in-filling transforming Energies in glory or in torment, as Paradise or as Punishment, is the heaven and hell of the Bible. Not something God did to us, but rather something we did to ourselves. God unconditionally pours out His love on all, WHETHER WE WANT IT OR NOT, whether we are ready for it or not, when we enter the afterlife. This is why the Gospel or "good news" of Jesus Christ should be shared with all people, of all nations, in all tongues. For there is nothing to fear from God's perfect love, since love casts out all fear.

However, it is not totally wrong to understand the after life as "type" of Heaven and Hell. Because from each individual's perspective, it will not be perceived as the same "place", but rather as either torment and darkness you can not escape, or as the paradise you have always longed for. For those judged, they will experience God's presence as eternal darkness and torment. Though it is very important to keep in mind what is the cause of either of these conditions, or one could reach very wrong conclusions about the nature of God, as they have in western theologies. To misrepresent the nature of a loving God would cause one to conclude that it was God's intention to punish his creation. Indeed, one blasphemes the reputation of the God of the Bible when you make him into an angry vengeful god that punishes His creation. The cause of the torment is the poor choices that we make, not God. If one thinks of these two different "places" as conditions that we choose to be in, rather than "compartments" God puts us in, it would be more accurate.

And it will certainly be "paradise" to finally experience His Divine Love up close and in person for those who seek it. It is all in the perception.

Such is the nature of a loving God. For God is God."
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html


As explained in the Scripture, the love of God is a consuming fire:

"There are numerous references to God's presence being like fire in the Hebrew Scriptures. In addition, before the invention of the electric light, any reference to "light" meant "fire" in one form or another. For example, "The Lord thy God is a consuming fire" (Numbers); God "…appeared to [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush," (Exodus); "The fire of the Lord burns among them" (Numbers); "the Lord descends upon it in fire" (Exodus); "You have refined us as silver in a fire" (Psalms); and "Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire" (Psalms). These are a few of the many Old Testament references to God being perceived as fire; it was how the Jews understood humans experience God's Shechinah glory.

No human could bear to look at the blazing holy presence of God: not Moses, who hid his face, not Abraham, not Adam or Eve after they fell from Grace. No human could look at the face of God and live to tell about it.

God is described as fire in the following verses; Gen 19:24, Ex 3:2, 9:23, 13;21-22, 19:18, Num 11:1-3, 4:24, Ne 9:12, Ps 66:10, 104:4, Is 66:15, among others places."
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html


In the afterlife, there is nothing but the enveloping presence of God, experienced as pure joy for those who love Him but terrible suffering for those who reject Him.

Your posts come off as being from someone who has never been introduced to Orthodox theology.

The Other Michael

If you are going to quote "Sinners . ." you should include my favorite part:

I'm sure there were people swooning in the audience when old JE let forth with those lines.

It appears that God's hate is also a consuming fire.

cheers,
Michael

Orthodox_Freethinker

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, like the Calvinism that inspired Edwards, provides an entirely demonic understanding of God.

The Calvinist understanding of hell as "fire and brimstone" is completely off -

"It is interesting to examine the Greek word for "divine", it is from the Greek "theion", which could also mean "divine being", but also means "sulfur', or in Old English "brimstone" [lit. 'burning stone']. As strange as that sounds to us, it is because of the ancient understanding of the cosmic order of the nature of all things. All people in all cultures from the Near East to the West understood that there were four 'elements', these were: Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. Their nature was that Earth and Water tended to go down toward Hades, and Air and Fire tended to go up toward heaven. This could plainly be seen when the heavenly fire, lighting, would hit a living tree and burn the "life" out of it. Anyone could see that the heat from the tree would go back to heaven in the fire, and the ash that remained would go down into the ground. But there was this mysterious yellowish earth substance that behaved very differently, when placed in a fire it burn so brightly that your eyes could not bear to look at it. As it burned, it would release the heavenly substance that was trapped inside and it would rise back to heaven. Clearly, this "burning stone" was a divine substance, and as such, it was simply called "divinity. It was burned within a new temple to "purify" it before consecration, presumably when this burning stone released it's divinity, it causes all evil things to flee from the temple, and thus was the temple readied for worship.

Yet the word 'theion' is translated as "brimstone" or "sulfur" in Luke 17:29, Rev. 9:17, 14:10, 20:10, 21:8, which is where 'fire and brimstone' comes out of heaven, but it is equally interchange with the words "divine fire". Since this did not fit the translators' preconceived ideas, it is rendered always as brimstone in this context...

Again, in many places God's presence and appearance is described as fire in the New Testament as well as in the Old. Examine for example, Matt 31:10-12, 25:41, Mark 9:49, Luke 12:49, Act 7:30, 1Cor 3:15, Heb 1:7, 12:29, Rev 3:18 and in numerous other places.

Typical is the verse where John the Baptist says "I baptize you with water, but the One that comes after me will baptize you with fire". The author of Hebrews writes that God is a consuming fire. Paul also writes that God is like the jeweler who burns gold in the fire to purify it. Jesus Himself states the he brings "fire" to the earth. That is, "divine fire".
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

John A. Broussard

How do you account for the fact that, when reading the scripture, one must recognize that "day" may not mean "day," that "death" may not mean "death," that "fire" may not mean "fire," and on, and on, and on?

Do you have some rule of thumb that the reader can use to determine what the words in the bible mean?

Chili

Well John, oxidation is like a very slow fire that can flare up and lead to spontaneous combustion, you know. Suffering is evidence of fire, in this sense, until we become the consuming fire on earth instead of our world that is being set on fire.

I like Orthodox_Freethinker's line below but have no time to respond now.

"Hell is not so much a place where God imprisons humans, as a place where humans, by misusing their free will, choose to imprison themselves. And even in hell the wicked are not deprived of the love of God, but by their own choice they experience as suffering what the saints experience as joy. 'The love of God will be an intolerable torment for those who have no acquired it within themselves.' "

I think it is right on.