Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sauron · 06-19-2007, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

First prove that such people are Christians

Doug Shaver:
It's enough for me that they call themselves Christians.

And you are who, exactly? Mr 'Bought computer, have opinion'?

1. Doug isn't required to lift even so much as a pinky finger to prove that they are christians for you. Not only is it a moving goalpost, but the burden of proof is on you to prove that they are NOT christians.

2. The fact that they self-identify as christians is the only reliable indicator that can be used anyhow - acquaint yourself with the "no true Scotsman" fallacy to discover why this is so.

Doug Shaver · 06-20-2007, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

And you are who, exactly?

A member of this forum. Why?

Clouseau · 06-20-2007, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

And you are who, exactly?

A member of this forum. Why?

Then of what importance is it for other members that 'It's enough for me that they call themselves Christians'?

Sauron · 06-20-2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

A member of this forum. Why?

Then of what importance is it for other members that 'It's enough for me that they call themselves Christians'?

Trying a diversion, Clouseau?

1. You tried to make Doug Shaver prove to you that these people were christians.

2. Doug has no such burden of proof. These people call themselves christians; he merely takes their self-reported faith and frames it in his argument.

3. This doesn't revolve around whether or not Doug Shaver is some kind of expert on christians. It revolves around the fact that they self-identify as such. That is the only reliable indicator of a person's faith, and proving they are (or are not) isn't possible (no true Scotsman).

lpetrich · 06-20-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Why did it matter for an Israelite to know that insects have six legs? I can't think of a reason. I can't think of a pressing reason for many people to know it.

Read the rest of Leviticus 11. Its authors start off by stating that the only OK land animals to eat are those that chew their cud and have split hooves; those authors evidently thought it important to notice such details.

But they soon start falling down on the job and making errors, like claiming that rabbits chew the cud, grouping bats with birds, and stating that grasshoppers and other orthopterans have four legs.

If one closely examines rabbits' feet, then why not also count grasshoppers' legs?

Quote:

I presume you mean a god construct- but it was the understanding of the Israelites that mattered. A real God gave Israelites instructions in terms that they understood, perhaps.

Pandering to people's vices

And tell that to everybody who claims that the Bible is full of great scientific discoveries. I'm willing to get some links for you if you don't believe me. They'll need to know that all their claims are pure folly.

Quote:

That would not mean that a creator of the cosmos didn't know the anatomy of his creatures. The commandments were not a biology lesson, and as long as the Israelites understood what they were to do, that was enough.

Pure evasion. That's no excuse for falling down on the job if one is omnipotent and omniscient. One ought not to make mistakes like that. Or any mistakes, for that matter.

Clouseau · 06-20-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Why did it matter for an Israelite to know that insects have six legs? I can't think of a reason. I can't think of a pressing reason for many people to know it.

Read the rest of Leviticus 11. Its authors start off by stating that the only OK land animals to eat are those that chew their cud and have split hooves; those authors evidently thought it important to notice such details.

But they soon start falling down on the job and making errors, like claiming that rabbits chew the cud, grouping bats with birds, and stating that grasshoppers and other orthopterans have four legs.

If one closely examines rabbits' feet, then why not also count grasshoppers' legs?

Pandering to people's vices

And tell that to everybody who claims that the Bible is full of great scientific discoveries. I'm willing to get some links for you if you don't believe me. They'll need to know that all their claims are pure folly.

Quote:

That would not mean that a creator of the cosmos didn't know the anatomy of his creatures. The commandments were not a biology lesson, and as long as the Israelites understood what they were to do, that was enough.

Pure evasion. That's no excuse for falling down on the job if one is omnipotent and omniscient. One ought not to make mistakes like that. Or any mistakes, for that matter.

Democracy is a wonderful thing.

Sauron · 06-20-2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Democracy is a wonderful thing.

I see a pattern forming.

1. Clouseau asserts something patently silly.

2. The asertion is torn to shreds by several people.

3. So instead of defending original assertion, Clouseau tosses out non-sequitir comment, hoping people will forget his assertion and led him quietly exit the stage without having to support it.:huh:

Yawn. I've seen better.

Doug Shaver · 06-21-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Then of what importance is it for other members that 'It's enough for me that they call themselves Christians'?

I suspect that a majority of the other members don't need me to educate them on how amorphous the concept of Christianity is. But there is the minority of newcomers, and there are always the lurkers. Some of them probably haven't learned yet that there is far more to know about Christianity than what some of its advocates would have them believe. One thing they should learn, and the sooner the better, is that anybody who says "All Christians believe X" or "No Christians do Y" is just wrong.

Clouseau · 06-21-2007, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Then of what importance is it for other members that 'It's enough for me that they call themselves Christians'?

Quote:

I suspect that a majority of the other members don't need me to educate them on how amorphous the concept of Christianity is.

So Doug Shaver is God. Also sprach Doug Shaver. The rest of us can meekly accept whatever he darn well says we believe.

This forum is now closed.

Joan of Bark · 06-21-2007, 03:10 AM

I'm reposting this as Clouseau did not respond the first time ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

You've missed the major point I was making, Clouseau. It is definitely not made clear in the OT as to what constitutes work. Is healing the sick and gathering food on the sabbath work? Did Jesus break a commandment?

And, as Sauron says, how do you know which are the 'accurate' translations of the verse I mentioned?

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