Freethought & Rationalism Archive

orac · 04-11-2005, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

For example Satan provides a method for God to show us the danger of not relying on Him.

Nothing personal, but I have never seen satan, never heard him speak, I certainly haven't seen his "inevitable" defeat because that hasn't happened, I haven't read his holy book, or even the pretentious crap written by some idiot pretending to be a satanist for the shock value - so he's not actually a good example of anything. The evidence for satan is as unpersuasive as the evidence for god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Would we really care about God and good, if we didn't have anything to compare it to?

As I said - what satan?

If you can't prove that god exists, would you care to offer prove that satan even exists?

Incidentally, I would give up my knowledge of good if god would give up child molester's ability to demonstrate evil. What would you be prepared to sacrifice in order to allow god to save children? Anything at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Satan also serves as a example of the futility of trying to rebell against God. Ultimately God wins, and rebelling does no good.

So what you're saying is that one can be an actual literal angel living in heaven, have direct personal contact with God, and still have the freedom to choose a futile rebellion - and yet God chooses to withhold his presence from people on earth who are crying out for him to speak to them and reveal His truth to them?

How exactly does that make sense? You've clearly shown that the free-will defense ("if God revealed himself we would lose our freedom to chose") is completely wrong, yet God is nowhere to be seen.

Ah well, do you mind if I quote you when people make the false claim that direct personal knowledge of god would eliminate people's freedom to choose?

Magus55 · 04-11-2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orac

Nothing personal, but I have never seen satan, never heard him speak, I certainly haven't seen his "inevitable" defeat because that hasn't happened, I haven't read his holy book, or even the pretentious crap written by some idiot pretending to be a satanist for the shock value - so he's not actually a good example of anything. The evidence for satan is as unpersuasive as the evidence for god.

As I said - what satan?

If you can't prove that god exists, would you care to offer prove that satan even exists?

If you notice, my answers were in response to the question of why doesn't God get rid of Satan assuming both exist. If you don't believe in either, obviously the question is moot and this argument is pointless.

Quote:

Incidentally, I would give up my knowledge of good if god would give up child molester's ability to demonstrate evil. What would you be prepared to sacrifice in order to allow god to save children? Anything at all?

I don't need to sacrifice anything. God gave us the responsibility of taking care of humanity. What are you doing to save the world's children? God is not a magic "fix-it-all-now" machine.

Quote:

So what you're saying is that one can be an actual literal angel living in heaven, have direct personal contact with God, and still have the freedom to choose a futile rebellion - and yet God chooses to withhold his presence from people on earth who are crying out for him to speak to them and reveal His truth to them?

God reveals Himself to those who are truly seeking, and are ready for Him. Again, He does things on His time not yours. Just because He doesn't shoot magical fireworks to get your attention, or reveal Himself the way you want, doesn't mean He doesn't reveal Himself to those who seek Him.

Quote:

How exactly does that make sense? You've clearly shown that the free-will defense ("if God revealed himself we would lose our freedom to chose") is completely wrong, yet God is nowhere to be seen.

How have I shown the free will defense is completely wrong? You mean because angels have free will and can see God? Angels aren't humans. Angels can't be redeemed. Angels can't be forgiven.

Quote:

Ah well, do you mind if I quote you when people make the false claim that direct personal knowledge of god would eliminate people's freedom to choose?

Yes, since I never said that. God came to Earth as a human 2000 years ago, yet people still didn't believe Him. Why are you assuming humans today would be any less blind? And Why should God even bother revealing Himself to people who mock, insult and ridicule Him, while claiming its impossible for Him to exist? God owes you nothing. If you want to reject His existence, and make demands on Him for you to believe, have fun. God doesn't bow down to humanity.

show_no_mercy · 04-11-2005, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Satan doesn't "hang" out with God

Quote:

Originally Posted by Job1:6

One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD .

You are wrong.

Magus55 · 04-11-2005, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

You are wrong.

Notice the "hang" in quotes? I don't consider Satan standing before God to be hanging out. They aren't friends.

Stephen T-B · 04-12-2005, 07:15 AM

Magus55: "God reveals Himself to those who are truly seeking, and are ready for Him."

He didn't reveal himself to me when I was truly seeking him. Was I ready for him? I thought I was. If I wasn't, nobody told me I wasn't and so I wasn't to know.

Prester John · 04-12-2005, 07:43 AM

I'm mildy suprised no one has mentioned Yahwehs 59 Brothers and sisters, and the big Daddy El or Yahwehs consort Asherah.

Wallener · 04-12-2005, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

I don't consider Satan standing before God to be hanging out. They aren't friends.

Correct. Their relationship is not one of friendship, it is more like an employer/employee relationship. Ha-Satan, like the other angels, has no free will and can do nothing without G-d's permission/instruction.

Agnostic Theist · 04-12-2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prester John

I'm mildy suprised no one has mentioned Yahwehs 59 Brothers and sisters, and the big Daddy El or Yahwehs consort Asherah.

Who are they?

Prester John · 04-12-2005, 08:14 AM

Yahweh was a member of the caananite pantheon, a warrior god. The pantheon was presided over by the god El. The pantheon also included the storm god Baal and Anat. Els' consort was Atherat. Yahweh takes over Els' role as pantheon leader and gains a consort Asherah. In the bibke the use of the word El has changed from a proper name to mean general god and become synonymous with Yahweh. Interesting eh! Some evidence for this, think of the name Isra-el. Also check out Deuteronomy 32:8-9

Quote:

When Elyon apportioned the nations,
when he divided humankind,
he fixed the boundaries of his peoples
according to the number of the sons of El;
Yahweh's own portion was his people,
Jacob his alloted share.

For futher information see:

http://www.eblaforum.org/library/bcah/intbibarch05.html

Stephen T-B · 04-12-2005, 08:17 AM

Infite Rules provided the true answer on Page One. I think that individual Roman Catholics even have their own individual notion of the god they worship - despite the Church laying it down pretty unequivocally as to what they should have in mind. Perhaps there are some, however, who don't really think about it, and worship and pray to the god that's described to them by their priests. They're the ones for whom superstition is unalloyed by any kind of intellectual grapplings.

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04-12-2005, 07:15 AM	#35
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Magus55: "God reveals Himself to those who are truly seeking, and are ready for Him." He didn't reveal himself to me when I was truly seeking him. Was I ready for him? I thought I was. If I wasn't, nobody told me I wasn't and so I wasn't to know.

04-12-2005, 07:43 AM	#36
Prester John Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wales Posts: 560	I'm mildy suprised no one has mentioned Yahwehs 59 Brothers and sisters, and the big Daddy El or Yahwehs consort Asherah.

04-12-2005, 08:17 AM	#40
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Infite Rules provided the true answer on Page One. I think that individual Roman Catholics even have their own individual notion of the god they worship - despite the Church laying it down pretty unequivocally as to what they should have in mind. Perhaps there are some, however, who don't really think about it, and worship and pray to the god that's described to them by their priests. They're the ones for whom superstition is unalloyed by any kind of intellectual grapplings.

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