Chili

Because "the father your" is a contradiction.

spin

E come puoi rispondere quando non hai capito cio' che ho detto e non capisci neanche cio' che dici tu?

Chris Weimer

spin: if you look at John 5 and 6, which is what I've gotten to so far, the redaction doesn't work there, or else it was really clever, but my father and the father are used interchangeably.

spin

What's the problem? Isn't 5:17-18 an addition, noting that v18 is just a heightened repetition of v16? V17 doesn't really deal with the sabbath quibbling. Isn't 6:35 the answer to the questioning in 6:30-31? Who would have thought that Moses gave the bread? There's nothing in the text to suggest it. Or try v39 which states the will of God, then we get another bite at the same cherry in the following verse. Am I just looking for a rationale?


spin

Chris Weimer

I don't have my Bible on me, but there was a couple of verses which struck me as harmonic, or at least well-redacted... I'll get back. As for 5:17-18, you're right, that does look very much added...

Notsri

It seems authentic to me. Notice:

V.16: Jesus encounters persecution for breaking the sabbath.
V. 17: Jesus answers to this by noting the Father's activity, i.e, that God, his father, is at work even then. (And thus, Jesus, God's servant, who acts according to the Father's will, must be similarly at work as well; cf., e.g., Jn. 5:21,30; 6:38-9; 8:28; et al).
V. 18: The Gospel's author then says that the Jews saught to persecute Jesus all the more, because he "not only broke the sabbath" (v. 16) but "called God his Father (v. 17), making himself equal with God."

...nothing awkward there at all, really.


Not directly, no; verse 35 is said in response to the statement from v. 34. Going back to v. 30, the Jews asked Jesus for a sign or miracle, mentioning one that had been given to their fathers in the wilderness: the manna from heaven (v. 31). Jesus commented that the manna their fathers received was not the true bread - that which gives life to the world (vv. 32-33). The people then expressed interest in this other bread (v. 34). Jesus' rejoinder was that, in fact, he was the true bread (v. 35).


The Jews apparently placed special importance on Moses' role in that event. Pseudo-Philo (Liber Antiquitatum Biblicarum 20:8) suggests the manna was procured on the merits of Moses. Josephus (Antiquities 3.1.6) expresses similar views. The same tradition is also preserved in later, rabbinic literature as well: the Tosefta (Sotah 11:2-7), the Babylonian Talmud (Taanit 9a, Kiddushin 38a), and Seder Olam Rabbah (10). All of these, in fact, with the exception of Josephus, even suggest that the manna ceased upon Moses' death. At any rate, I don't think Jesus meant to counter this tradition here as much as emphasize what the Father now offers ("true" bread).

Toto

John 5

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him.

17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

The answer that Jesus gives in 19 is an answer to the charges in 16 - that he is working on the Sabbath. But it seems to compound the sins charged in 18, that he claims to be the Son of the Father.

John 6 is not so clear to me. 32 could be the answer to the question in 30-31, with 35-40 an aside. Or 31-35 could be inserted. But if so, the interpolator has woved a lot of material into later verses.

30 So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?

31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34 "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Chris Weimer

Good work Toto. Also, not that 32 seems to be in direct contradiction with the feeding of the multitudes.

spin

Note that v40 gives another version of the same thing as v39:

• 39a And this is the will of him who sent me,
  40a For my Father's will is
• 39b that I shall lose none of all that he has given me,
  40b that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life,
• 39c but raise them up at the last day.
  40c and I will raise him up at the last day.

spin

30 So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?

31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

Material which separates the response from the questions:
32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34 "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

This is a response to v31:
35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

This is a response to v30:
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

This is just a repetition of the content of v39 (see my previous message):
40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
What may have happened is that the one source gave rise to two forms which became differentiated by the change to "my father", but the two forms sometimes cover the same ground so you get doublets like v39 and v40.


spin