Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 10-20-2009, 11:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Solo

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Interesting theory, sleep deprivation/hallucinogenics resulting in a movement which has lasted more than two thousand years.

...did not forget to count in the years when the Jesus movement was in his diapers, good boy !

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If we add the creation of false memories into the history of early Christianity then we get a good picture of it's origins, not.

This is a freethinkers' forum, arnoldo: you know, people who are not afraid to think out of a box. You evidently have not met many of those, so you are excused for believing we fall short of the intellectual rigour of a Jesuit college.

Jiri

Yes, and it takes a freethinker (in the Orwellian sense of the word) to seriously take the hypothesis that christianity began as a result of drug induced hallucination(s)..

Toto · 10-20-2009, 12:22 PM

What is the Orwellian sense of the word freethinker?

Matossian's theory is that apocalyptic thinking in early Judaism arose as a result of hallucinogens. This apolcalyptic thinking influenced early Christianity. Some of the scenes in the gospels are compatible with the religious use of herbal substances.

Matossian is an established historian, and not hostile to religion, as far as I can tell. If you can find a copy of her article, you will see that she assumes a historical Jesus of some sort. She is primarily trying to explain certain aspects of Christianity and some of the scenes in the gospels as drug induced.

I think you are overreacting, because you sense some threat to your beliefs.

mountainman · 10-20-2009, 04:06 PM

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I tried a google search of Roger's excellent site.

The best I came up with was this from the syriac_acts_of_john

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She then said to him: "Dost thou not know, my son, what thou seest? This is our lady, and her image descended from heaven, and she nourishes all flesh." He then, a youth in his body, but exalted above the whole garland of his brethren, the holy virgin John, broke out into anger with her

John gets angry at an old woman suggests a satire on John. Why should the saint John, in possession of mighty christian wisdom, lose his cool?

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and said: "Hold thy peace, old woman! for thy mind has become enfeebled by sacrifices of unclean things. Talk not to me of the daughter of Satan." But she stooped down, and filled her fists with dust and gravel, and scattered it in his eyes; and he left (her) and departed thence. And he went a little (way) off, and knelt down, and was praying and supplicating. And he placed his face between his knees from the sixth hour to the ninth, and was weeping, groaning and saying:...

The suggestion of satire continues: John is defeated by an old woman.

However the greatest suggestion of satire is at the very beginning when the attribution for the author of this text is specifically provided as Eusebius of Cæsarea ....

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The history of John, the son of Zebedee, who lay upon the breast of our Lord Jesus at the supper, and said, "Lord, who betrayeth Thee?"

This history was composed by Eusebius of Cæsarea concerning S. John, who found it in a Greek book, and it was translated into Syriac, when he had learned concerning his way of life and his birth and his dwelling in the city of Ephesus, after the ascension of our Lord to Heaven.

Was in fact This history was composed by Eusebius of Cæsarea ?
I think not. I think someone was casting dispersions on the church historian, and on the public perception (at the epoch of authorship of the text) of the christian apostles.

arnoldo · 10-20-2009, 04:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

What is the Orwellian sense of the word freethinker?

You'll have to read 1984 to find that answer.

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Originally Posted by Toto

Matossian's theory is that apocalyptic thinking in early Judaism arose as a result of hallucinogens. This apolcalyptic thinking influenced early Christianity. Some of the scenes in the gospels are compatible with the religious use of herbal substances.

Matossian is an established historian, and not hostile to religion, as far as I can tell. If you can find a copy of her article, you will see that she assumes a historical Jesus of some sort. She is primarily trying to explain certain aspects of Christianity and some of the scenes in the gospels as drug induced.

Revisionist history is also a prevalent theme in 1984.

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Originally Posted by Toto

I think you are overreacting, because you sense some threat to your beliefs.

Yeah, it's threatening to consider that Jesus and the apostles were stoned

arnoldo · 10-20-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I tried a google search of Roger's excellent site.

The best I came up with was this from the syriac_acts_of_john

John gets angry at an old woman suggests a satire on John. Why should the saint John, in possession of mighty christian wisdom, lose his cool?

He lost his cool because of the idolatry in Ephesus

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This great and chosen (man), then—as we have found in the books, which are written on paper, in the archives of Nero, the wicked emperor—S. John, then, came and arrived at the city of Ephesus; and he lifted up his eyes and saw, and, lo, a smoke was going up from the midst of the city of Ephesus, for it was a festival of the heathens, and they were sacrificing to the devils. And he stood still and was astonished, saying: "What is this conflagration, which, lo, veils the sun so that it does not shine upon the buildings of the city?" And with terror taking hold on him, he came and reached the southern gate, and lifted up his eyes and saw; and lo, the image of the idol Artemis was standing over the gate, painted by them with paints, with gold laid upon her lips, and a veil of fine linen hanging over her face, and a lamp burning before her.

And when S. John looked and saw her, he contemplated her; and sighed, and wept over the city; and he left (the spot), and departed thence to another gate, and saw there the same thing; and he went round and saw thus at all the gates. And at last he came near to the eastern (gate), and said to an old woman, who was standing and worshipping her — he spoke and said to her in the language of the country: "Woman, I see thee, that thou art a woman advanced in years; what is this image that thou art worshipping?" |10

She then said to him: "Dost thou not know, my son, what thou seest? This is our lady, and her image descended from heaven, and she nourishes all flesh." He then, a youth in his body, but exalted above the whole garland of his brethren, the holy virgin John, broke out into anger with her and said: "Hold thy peace, old woman! for thy mind has become enfeebled by sacrifices of unclean things. Talk not to me of the daughter of Satan." But she stooped down, and filled her fists with dust and gravel, and scattered it in his eyes; and he left (her) and departed thence. And he went a little (way) off, and knelt down, and was praying and supplicating. And he placed his face between his knees from the sixth hour to the ninth, and was weeping, groaning and saying: "Lord God, strong and mighty, longsuffering and abounding in grace, Thou art He who from the first didst show Thy longsuffering, for a hundred years, on those (who were) called to repentance of the generation of Noah; but they did not repent, until the flood came and swept away that whole generation. And Thou art He who didst send Thy only-(begotten and) dear Son, that the world might have life through Him; and He came and did good deeds like Thee, because He proceeded from Thee. And Thou art He who, when the people of Israel worshipped the calf, didst find out a reason and didst say to Moses, 'Suffer me to destroy this people,' since it did not honour Thee; for Thou didst wish that it should pray to Thee, because Thou |11 takest great pleasure in the life of men. So also Thy dear Son our Lord Jesus the Messiah, when the Jews took Him to slay Him, prayed and said, 'Forgive them, for they know not what they do.' This mercy, then, which is eternally in Thee, is also found in Thy Son, for Ye are one. Turn, Lord! the heart of these erring ones, who, lo, are shouting and crying out before devils. Thou didst come and slay the evil one; let not his head be lifted up in the assembly of this city; let not be heard the sound of the roaring of the falsehood of the devils. Thou didst die once, and didst raise us to life with Thyself. Dash down Satan, for, lo, he has cast down and brought low the image, that was created in Thy likeness, before the legions of his demons. Let the doomed images be brought into contempt, not of this place only, but of every region through which our preaching runs. Yea, Lord! Thou hast taught us that we should walk in the world humbly and lowlily. Hear the prayer of Thy servant John, and let me enter this city, bearing the sign of Thy Cross; and direct my path to the right hand; and where Thou pleasest, there let be found for me a place in which I can earn my living as a hireling, until, Lord, this city follows (Thee) and confesses Thy name."

Toto · 10-20-2009, 05:30 PM

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Originally Posted by mountainman

...

John gets angry at an old woman suggests a satire on John. Why should the saint John, in possession of mighty christian wisdom, lose his cool?

The idea that losing your cool is a bad thing is a wimpy modern idea. Jewish prophets were always getting righteously angry. Jesus got angry. God is an angry god.

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The suggestion of satire continues: John is defeated by an old woman.

....

Old women had a certain status in ancient societies, especially in some of the pagan and mystery religions.

In short, not satire.

Toto · 10-20-2009, 05:41 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

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Originally Posted by Toto

What is the Orwellian sense of the word freethinker?

You'll have to read 1984 to find that answer.

In other words, you just made something up to associate freethinking and Orwell.

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Revisionist history is also a prevalent theme in 1984.

That's because Orwell had Stalin in mind, and Stalin, as we know, started off training for the priesthood, where he learned a lot.

There's no sense just shouting "Orwell" and sticking your fingers in your ears.

mountainman · 10-20-2009, 07:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...

John gets angry at an old woman suggests a satire on John. Why should the saint John, in possession of mighty christian wisdom, lose his cool?

The idea that losing your cool is a bad thing is a wimpy modern idea.

The idea of losing your cool on an old lady in her own idea of reverence has always been a bad thing demonstrating a lack of respect for the old lady and whatever philosophy she may subscribe to at that moment in her life.

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Jewish prophets were always getting righteously angry. Jesus got angry. God is an angry god.

Did they fill themselves with righteous indignation and beat up on innocent old ladies?

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The suggestion of satire continues: John is defeated by an old woman.

....

Old women had a certain status in ancient societies, especially in some of the pagan and mystery religions.

The message in the text is .... Old lady defeats "Saint John".

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In short, not satire.

Was in fact this history composed by Eusebius of Cæsarea as the introductory section clearly states?

Toto · 10-20-2009, 07:47 PM

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Originally Posted by mountainman

...
Did they fill themselves with righteous indignation and beat up on innocent old ladies?

God drowned putatively innocent children and old ladies, turned one into a pillar of salt. . . Jesus threatened them with hellfire. . .

Still not satire.

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Was in fact this history composed by Eusebius of Cæsarea as the introductory section clearly states?

I don't know and I don't see the relevance.

mountainman · 10-20-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

John gets angry at an old woman suggests a satire on John. Why should the saint John, in possession of mighty christian wisdom, lose his cool?

He lost his cool because of the idolatry in Ephesus

OMG! That's it! Cultural wrath! That explains Saint John's indignant and anti-Hellenistic wrath precisely. Saints are not recognised for their anger. The author, who is stated as being Eusebius of Caesarea, is taking the mickey out of the young Saint John.

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10-20-2009, 12:22 PM	#32
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What is the Orwellian sense of the word freethinker? Matossian's theory is that apocalyptic thinking in early Judaism arose as a result of hallucinogens. This apolcalyptic thinking influenced early Christianity. Some of the scenes in the gospels are compatible with the religious use of herbal substances. Matossian is an established historian, and not hostile to religion, as far as I can tell. If you can find a copy of her article, you will see that she assumes a historical Jesus of some sort. She is primarily trying to explain certain aspects of Christianity and some of the scenes in the gospels as drug induced. I think you are overreacting, because you sense some threat to your beliefs.

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