Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Littlejohn · 07-13-2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Pete wrote:

Have you read the Syriac "Acts of Philip"? Or the Acts of Thomas? Someone is taking the mickey out of the canon characters. (ie: parody). In the NHC 6.1 "Acts of Peter and the 12 Apostles" carbon dated to 348 CE the apostles (are there 11, 12 or 13??) are presented consistently as inept and uneducated non ascetics wandering around asking for food and lodgings.

Hey, Pete .... there is no technique dating to the C14 that allows you to date an archaeological find so precise! (348, sic !)... Where did you read all this? ...

Only common textual analysis techniques (textual criticism, examination paleografic, stylistic and so on), comparing the text concerned with categories of writings whose date is certain, can move closer to ten years, but not to single year! The Carbon 14 dating can not do even that, since the range of uncertainty goes beyond the 70 years!. What needs to textual analysis is that it is carried out by experts who have not any link with the interests of the clergy, of any "colour"!

All best

Littlejohn

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Littlejohn · 07-16-2008, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Littlejohn wrote:

In the thread "Lucian of Samosata and his Peregrinus" I mentioned that in fact the character of Luciano, Peregrinus, indeed it conceals a second, to which the satirical writer has applied the tag of "Proteus", precisely because this character "hidden" had a remarkable tendency to change "skin", that is identity (Proteus, in the Hellenistic world of mythology, was a singular deity that changed its appearance in continuation).

Peregrinus was a real figure of cynical philosopher, whose traces are in Attic Nights of Aulus Gellius and Tertullian, who cites him simply as a cynical philosopher. The thing that should not go unnoticed is that Tertullian makes no mention of the fact that he was a prominent Christian: this is absurd since Luciano says that Peregrinus was almost worshipped as a God! ..How could he not mention a similar event, if it was a truly genuine fact? .. If don't other for evil say of him, if he had not received the approval of the authorities of Christian! So it is quite clear that Peregrinus and Proteus were two distinct characters, "merged" into a single literary character. Please note that this mechanism of "fusion" (or, as opposed to "splitting") has been made a broad abuse in the context if the New Testament, confirming that this technique was very widespread in some cultural and literary circles, especially those philo-hellenistic

For all that, therefore, I believe it is imperative to strive to understand when Luciano speaks of Peregrinus and when of Proteus. Regarding the presence in Athens, it is certain that the reference is made to both the characters. Concerning the notorious stake on which Peregrinus made self-immolation, we only know it through the Luciano's news and therefore we can not understand whether this was a reality or merely a literary invention. If indeed there was such a stake, it is certain then that regarded the only figure of Peregrinus and not that of Proteus.

The "strangulation" of his father, by Peregrinus (actually in this case "Proteus") is only a mere literary device that Lucian used it to recall facts in which Proteus was somehow involved. To kill his father however was not him. Very likely is the fact that he decided to leave his native place because his acquaintances, and part of his disciples, was convinced that he had played a role in the violent death of his father. (I personally doubt that it is gone so)

Many other events tell by Lucian, certainly concerned "Proteus", but one can not exclude to prior (on the first) that at least some of them have also regarded Peregrinus.

In the light of all this, I believe that there is evidence that an identification "tout-court" of the caracter "Peregrinus" and of the character Ignatius, would be quite risky, although not be ruled out that "Ignatius", in turn, could have been a further nick of the character that Luciano has labelled as "Proteus": further testimony that such caracter was usually to change "skin" frequently!

The message referred to above has already been posted by me in the thread "Ignatius of Antioch & Peregrinus." I thought of re-posting also here not only because of the close similarity of subject matter, but also because I hope to give life to new speculative ideas on the subject.

Anyone who has followed this thread from start, knows already that I identified with Peregrinus PAUL OF TARSUS. Of course such assertion can amaze and can generate dissent, even if not expressed properly. But I would remember that I have already said, with my commitment on the forum, I would not absolutely pursue the way of "proselytism", persuade and led others to my "truth". A truth that in part is established, and this I say with all frankness, by "apodittic" conclusions

These conclusions spring from careful reflection and comparing the data collected, irrespective of their origin and age, as nobody ancient source can provide NEVER so integral also, that truth that entire generations of scholars in each discipline, have sought with great commitment, often "spasmodic", waiting to arrive at a conclusion that could partly mitigate their existential doubts, related in part to doubt, fully legitimate, about the historical veracity of what passed for centuries and centuries by Catholic clergy, who always maintained, in an almost constant and rigorous way, an attitude exactly opposite to what we would have waited if these people (clergy and the like) had even slightest believed to what preached!

What we have today, to try to make a comfortable composition of historical facts that occurred about two thousand years ago, are merely "crumbs" of truth, not the integral story as some would, like vain also!

This are crumbs of truth luckily escaped to centuries and centuries of maniacal "sorting", filtering literary, not only extrachristian writings, but also the same Christian writings: whether canonical or not!

All this because until the first half of the fourth century, the truth about Jesus and all that regarded him, was a sort of secret of "Pulcinella "(*), namely that at that time to try to stem the voices or malicious "rumors" regard to Christians and the origins of their religion, was how to collect water with a colander!

Things changed radically already starting from second half of the fourth century, when the cynics bishops, with their bands of "pious" murderers in smell of "sainthood", began to make massacres of pagans, gnostics, jews and any other will not one bend to forced conversion to Catholicism [today Catholic apologists speak of "large conversions 'spontaneous' " (che li possino am ....... a!)].

All of this was due to a disconcerting subordination policy of the descendants of Constantine to greedy intentions of the leading exponents of Catholic worship: "nihilistic" policy which touched the highest of deliberate self-harm with the Emperor Theodosius (virtually plagiarised from the "fox" Ambrose from Milan ).

It was in this way that Catholics began to silence dissent extra-christian and destroy almost all of the documents in a position to witness the truth about Jesus, his mother and the real origins of Christianity-Catholicism.

The same Christian literature, as mentioned above, needed for a major overhaul in order to disappear, to the extent possible, all traces "sbadatamente" (with a little accuracy) left by patristi of previous centuries. However, a few of those tracks have remained ("crumbs" of which I spoke above).

Great "patron" of this broad literary revision, was Pope Damasus (even him a bishop "banditesco", namely like "gangster"!), which, among other initiatives, gave mandate to Jerome to compose a new Bible, more responsive to the interests of the new Catholic church (especially taht Roman component!)

In order to stimulate discussions on possible, back to the original theme in new post.

________________

Note:

(*) - An exhilarating type of neapolitan mask, which was famous because when he was aware of a "secret", immediately told it to others, but beg each not to tell it anyone else! The result, as you can easily imagine, was that soon the entire district was aware of that "secret"!

Littlejohn
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Huon · 07-16-2008, 07:04 AM

Thekla = glory of god (greek). Theos (god) - Kleos (glory).

Littlejohn · 07-16-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Thekla = glory of god (greek). Theos (god) - Kleos (glory).

Hi Huon!

It is possible ... However, according to the informations I have, the term derives from the Germanic Thecla, and its original means is "shining", so as one star or another aster particularly bright, as Venus ...

From my research appears more consistent meaning "shining" rather than "Glory of God", even if the later significance could be somehow relevant to the topic ...

All best

Littlejohn

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07-16-2008, 07:04 AM	#13
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Thekla = glory of god (greek). Theos (god) - Kleos (glory).

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