jjramsey

If this were the case, why would Justin Martyr write, "And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth1812 of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter" (source), or "And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus" (source)? Justin here is actively trying to establish pagan parallels, not deny them. The former quote is even used by Jesus-mythers as evidence for their case!

GakuseiDon does make a goof here, apparently misreading his Roman numerals (?). Where he writes Chapters 32 and 33, he should have Chapters 54 (LIV) and 55 (LV). Other than that, he's right. Justin is arguing that the devils tried to "produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvellous tales, like the things which were said by the poets," but failed because "in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it."

jakejonesiv

Deuteronomy 23:1

Jake

jakejonesiv

Perseus was born of the virgin Danae and the God Zeus who took the form of a shower of gold/ ray of sunlight. Dionysius was born of the virgin Semele by Zeus with a bolt of lightning. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:18, Luke 1:35). The HS is said to get on top of her, but exactly what physical form, if any, the HS was supposed to assume for the actual impregnation is not stated.

But if Justin is right, and "Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter,"

then this literally means Justin was teaching that,

the sons of Jupiter:
a. Were crucified
b. Died
c. Rose again
d. Ascended to heaven
Wow, that is some good information, jj. I will probably use that in the future.

Thanks,
Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

Hi Malachi,

This is interesting info. Can you cite the references for the above?

Thanks!!

Jake

jjramsey

Um, no ...

Remember, too, that his argument was that the devils misunderstood the prophecy, so Justin had to go and point out these supposed commonalities that were obscured by the devils' errors. If you look at them honestly, you see that the commonalities that Justin points out are often banal or strained.

jakejonesiv

Here Justin relates what his opponents believe.

Here Justin relates what he believes:
But please continue, it is fun to watch.

Jake Jones

jjramsey

This does not make sense of the text. First, he writes, "And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this [emphasis mine] in common with what you accept of Perseus." He's asking them to accept a parallel, not reject it. Further, when he points out further parallels, he doesn't debunk them, but makes stretched comparisions to make these parallels. This is not consistent with your interpretation.

Ben C Smith

I truly have no idea what either of you thought I was trying to say in that post of mine, but I think that either I misworded something or you misunderstood something. The Hebrew was quite peripheral to my point.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I know where Michael lives. And I agree that there is probably a lot more honor-shame stuff going on in Taiwan than in the U. S. or other western nations. Nevertheless, two millennia, including two or three centuries of ruthless westernization, separate the modern east from the ancient east.

I will take Malina, Pilch, Rohrbaugh, and the others from the Context Group over modern versions of shame in virtually any country.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I disagree with this statement.

But it is enough that Paul regarded Jesus as a figure within ordinary human history instead of in mythical times past.

None of these verses says that Jesus was crucified long ago. Several say that there has been a mystery hidden for ages. One says that names have been written in a book for ages.

If the original story had him slain and hung on a tree, we have to very clearly explain how that turned into crucifixion. If the original story had him crucified, then it was the mining of the OT for parallels that led to all the talk of hanging on a tree, and all is clear.

Ben.