Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 09-23-2006, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Capable of anything that is humanly logically possible as well as anything that is divinely logically possible.

There are different rules of logic for gods? That makes no sense but, more relevant to your position, the addition of it does nothing more to support your argument than the original comment.

I've concluded you are incapable of rationally defending your position because it is entirely based on faith and attempting a reasoned discussion would be futile. :wave:

Helpmabob · 09-25-2006, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

The Bible endorses eternal punishment without parole.

Here is what the bible has about this in a prophetic manner:

My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to listen to your words, but they do not put them into practice. With their mouths they express devotion, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain. Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice. "When all this comes true—and it surely will—then they will know that a prophet has been among them." [Ezekiel 33:31-33]
What do you think Johnny?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

There are different rules of logic for gods?

Someone who has no fear of God might well put it like that.

Jack the Bodiless · 09-25-2006, 04:57 AM

Helpmabob:

Quote:

And Greek myth is crystal clear about the existence of the Olympian pantheon. Yet presumably you have no difficulty in denying the existence of those gods?

I don’t deny that the Greek’s believed they existed. I do deny that their Gods were any good to them.

The Jews probably qualify as one of the most frequently conquered peoples in history, whereas Greek culture produced Alexander the Great. Even the later success of Christianity was due to the Greek-influenced pagan Roman Empire.

Quote:

What about the prophecies of Greek myth? It was prophesied that Oedipus would kill his own father and marry his own mother: and, lo, it came to pass! (...according to the story). Will you accept this as evidence of the validity of Greek myth?

Mainly because the Greek’s ‘gods’ were no gods at all. There is only one God – surely that much is obvious to you? He alone is by definition capable of inspiring prophecy.

Of course it isn't "obvious to me" - what a strange remark! But if he WAS "capable of inspiring prophecy", you'd be able to provide a clear, unequivocal example of such: and you cannot.

Jack the Bodiless · 09-25-2006, 05:04 AM

Lee:

Why are you STILL dragging the decayed corpse of the Babylon "prophecy" around?

Both Isaiah and Jeremiah FALSELY prophesied that Babylon would fall to the Medes, and would then be destroyed by them. You've even QUOTED Jeremiah's timescale for this event!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Jer. 25:12 "Then it will be when seventy years are completed I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation," declares the Lord, "for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it an everlasting desolation."

This did not happen. The prophecy failed.

Quoting FAILED prophecies is hardly likely to convince anyone that the Bible has any merit!

Johnny Skeptic · 09-25-2006, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Lee, why are you STILL dragging the decayed corpse of the Babylon "prophecy" around?

Both Isaiah and Jeremiah FALSELY prophesied that Babylon would fall to the Medes, and would then be destroyed by them. You've even QUOTED Jeremiah's timescale for this event!

This did not happen. The prophecy failed.

Quoting FAILED prophecies is hardly likely to convince anyone that the Bible has any merit!

Lee has no trouble arguing with the writers of Bible commentaries. For instance, at the EofG Forum, I quoted William MacDonald's Believer's Bible Commentary on several occasions. MacDonald gives a lot of evidence that the Babylon prophecy HAS NOT been fulfilled, and will be fulfilled in the end times.

Lee has been over at the EofG Forum trying to influence unwary readers, but I have not had any trouble refuting his ridiculous arguments. Consider the following

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

I made six arguments that you did not reply to, and quite conveniently I might add. I numbered them this time. Will you please reply to each of them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeMerrill

Johnny, we seem to make no progress at all when I reply to you.

It is quite natural for people who make bad arguments to not make progress with their arguments. You are well aware that if you tried to reply to my arguments, you would embarrass yourself. I will now post them again so readers can see for themselves that what I said is true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

1 - And you, as the challenger, may deliver your challenge to the challengees, the Iraqi government, at any time, but for some strange reason you are reluctant to do so. This is quite odd. You have delivered your challenge to skeptics, but skeptics do not have any authority to rebuild Babylon.

2 - If your challenge is valid and useful, then surely at least one U.S. government official who agrees with you would have made the challenge via world media, but obviously, that hasn't happened.

3 - In addition, why haven't Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell issued the challenge via world media?

4 - Why don't you contact Robertson and Fallwell and ask them to issue the challenge? They both have access to world media.

5 - No challenge can be accepted or declined unless the challengee is aware of it.

6 - How far do you think you will get telling Muslims that Islam is a false religion and that Christianity is the one true religion because you claim that attempts to rebuild Babylon have failed?

You have broken your word. You said that you would reply to new arguments. Most or all of those arguments were new. If some of them were not new, you certainly have never adequately replied to them.

Regarding the Tyre prophecy, do you by any chance have any evidence that it was written before the events, and that is has not been revised? No?, I didn’t think so, in which case whether or not the SUPPOSED prophecy came true is irrelevant. The FIRST steps in debating a prophecy are establishing that the prophecy in question is actually a prophecy, and that it has not been revised. Otherwise, even if you win the battle over whether or not a prophecy came true, you still lose the war over whether or not a prophecy was made before the events, and whether or not it has been revised.

Lee finally agreed at my suggestion to contact the Iraqi embassy and issue his challenge to the Iraqi government, about a year late of course. His intention from the beginning has been to make sure the the Iraqi government NOT know about his challenge. I asked him to post the reply that he gets from the Iraqi government. You can bet that Lee will try to pull some of his tricks regarding this matter. He already knows that Muslims do not wish to discredit Isaiah 13:19-20

Lee is also trying out his miracle healings arguments at the EofG forum, but to no avail.

spin · 09-25-2006, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13
There are different rules of logic for gods?

Someone who has no fear of God might well put it like that.

Unfortunately, you don't have the facilities to be able to make this statement meaningfully, as you don't have any other logic available to you: you don't know the mind of your god so you don't have any access to his rules of logic. Rejecting the rules of logic of course means that you cannot communicate with most others, as you have no way of making sense of the world or making yourself understood.

spin

Amaleq13 · 09-25-2006, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Someone who has no fear of God might well put it like that.

Perhaps, but only someone with no comprehension of logic would accept such a ridiculous notion. :wave:

Johnny Skeptic · 09-25-2006, 09:19 AM

Message to Helpmabob: What evidence do you have that God has the right to rule the universe, and that he is perfect? Regarding the Bible's claim that God is perfect, what evidence do you have that the writers were speaking for God and not for themselves?

Exodus 20:5 says “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.” Now is that fair? Well of course it isn’t.

Helpmabob · 09-26-2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

The Jews probably qualify as one of the most frequently conquered peoples in history, whereas Greek culture produced Alexander the Great. Even the later success of Christianity was due to the Greek-influenced pagan Roman Empire.

I do see your point in relation to kingdoms of this world. The Jews regularly ignored warnings and suffered as a result. Usually though, I am more interested in the kingdom that endures forever. The template for this is the particular Jew Jesus, rather than the Jews in general. His kingdom will be won not by the sword but comes by love and service. So God seems to act in subtle and mysterious ways in achieving His will. And when it comes to prophecy, God doesn’t use it to impress and control people as such. But this was the purpose of the Greek philosophers I would imagine.

Quote:

Of course it isn't "obvious to me" [that there is one God]- what a strange remark! But if he WAS "capable of inspiring prophecy", you'd be able to provide a clear, unequivocal example of such: and you cannot.

I very much doubt if I can provide a scientifically authenticated proof of a specific, exact and unquestionable prediction of the future, witnessed by a group of impartial non-believers. It is a classic non-sequitor that because God can do everything (including prophecy), his followers should be able to prove that everything is possible for God.

The earthly attractions of entertainment, celebrity and wealth is not what I consider the Bible provides in its realms of prophecy. Instead they point to God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Unfortunately, you don't have the facilities to be able to make this statement meaningfully, as you don't have any other logic available to you: you don't know the mind of your god so you don't have any access to his rules of logic. Rejecting the rules of logic of course means that you cannot communicate with most others, as you have no way of making sense of the world or making yourself understood.

I don’t reject human logic - I use human logic to interact with humans But I don’t insist on precisely the same for my interactions with God. What use would a God be if He were merely human – or only of human mindset? The Israelites tried this: They consult a wooden idol and are answered by a stick of wood. [Hosea 4:12]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Exodus 20:5 says “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God.

Yes - love the lord your God with all your heart mind and soul! I hope you are seeing the light Johnny.

spin · 09-26-2006, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

I don’t reject human logic - I use human logic to interact with humans

That's a minor relief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

But I don’t insist on precisely the same for my interactions with God. What use would a God be if He were merely human – or only of human mindset?

The line of thought doesn't connect. OK, you don't expect your god to be logical. What has logic got to do with being "merely human"? Obviously, you can't answer, because you don't have the facility to make sense of what you are trying to say. What makes you think that logic is representative "only of human mindset"? Again, you can't answer. Too bad. One is hopeless without having logic to tie things together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

The Israelites tried this: They consult a wooden idol and are answered by a stick of wood. [Hosea 4:12]

Nice non sequitur, eh?

spin

09-25-2006, 09:19 AM	#188
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Prophecy Message to Helpmabob: What evidence do you have that God has the right to rule the universe, and that he is perfect? Regarding the Bible's claim that God is perfect, what evidence do you have that the writers were speaking for God and not for themselves? Exodus 20:5 says “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.” Now is that fair? Well of course it isn’t.

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