Freethought & Rationalism Archive

deadman_932 · 07-11-2007, 07:36 AM

Quote:

The Evil One wrote:
I think YECs dislike positing miracles that aren't specified in the Bible, because it implies that the Bible record is not a complete record of God's interaction with humankind.

Yep, when Dave was given a list of "miracles" that his scenarios implied or directly required...the flying hydroplates, the accellerated nuclear decay, the water blasting off into space following the flood, etc, he tried to repeat once again his mantra that "miracles are just things science hasn't explained" and denied they were miracles at all.

ericmurphy · 07-11-2007, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

First, it is not the "first world" that is contributing to present world over-population. My understanding is that developed countries have almost zero pop growth.

First World technologies are, Dave. And population growth in the first world has only flattened out very recently.

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Secondly, the comparison is valid because the pre-contact tribe would be expected to have far less knowledge of medicine, hygiene, etc. than Noah's clan because Noah's clan came from an advanced civilization which existed prior to the Flood.

What "advanced civilization," Dave? You have zero evidence for any "advanced civilization" before the "flood," you're just making shit up. Your claim that precolombian cultures were less advanced than ante-diluvian cultures is as unsupported as your claim that there was a "flood" in the first place.

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Thirdly, I suggest that you study Mt. Saint Helens and the rapid recovery that area experienced after the eruption. Resources would have been available again very rapidly following the Flood.

Mt. St. Helens doesn't help you in the slightest. There was a functioning biosphere surrounding Mt. St. Helens from which the devastated region could be repopulated. There was no biosphere after the "flood."

Occam's Aftershave · 07-11-2007, 07:50 AM

Dave, how does your YEC population mode account for populations that existed elsewhere in the world around your claimed Flud time of 2743 BC?

For example, how about the settlements at Caral, Peru? Caral is considered by many to be the oldest city in South America, and was founded sometime between 2700 and 2600 BC.

From the article:

Quote:

Researchers investigating a long-ignored Peruvian archaeological site say they have determined that it is the oldest city in the Americas, with a complex, highly structured society that flourished at the same time that the pyramids were being built in Egypt. The finding is forcing a re-evaluation of ideas about the rise of the earliest civilizations in the New World, particularly how andwhen ancient peoples moved from the coasts, with reliable ocean food sources, to inland settlements with less stable supplies of food.

The vast site, called Caral, is one of about a dozen large sites in the Supe Valley, just inland from the Pacific coast in central Peru, 120 miles north of Lima. New radiocarbon dating shows that Caral flourished for five centuries, starting about 2600 B.C., with public architecture (including six stone platform mounds up to 60 feet high), ceremonial plazas and irrigation — all signs of a society with strong, centralized leadership.

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Dr. Haas said that before the rise of Caral civilization in the region amounted to a few small coastal villages, with perhaps a hundred people or so in each, and other smaller bands of hunter-gatherers. By 2700 B.C., he said, several larger villages began to appear. "But then all of a sudden you've got Caral, and probably at least one of its neighbors," Dr. Haas said. "It's bigger by an order of magnitude than anything before." While it is not yet possible to estimate the population of Caral — much more archaeological work remains to be done — Dr. Haas said that the number was in the thousands, not hundreds.

So you've got a major center in Peru with a population in the thousands in the years immediately after Da Flud. Which of Noah's sprogs took his clan to S. America?

And what about China?

In 2500 BC the Longshan culture was in full swing, with dozens of well documented sites having been identified and excavated. There's another tens of thousand folks minimum you need to account for.

Well Dave?

Dave Hawkins · 07-11-2007, 08:00 AM

RE: Mike PSS on Josephus ...

Josephus is not claiming that there were survivors of the Flood. He is quoting Nicolaus of Damascus who sounds like he is saying this in the English rendering. Josephus' point is ... many barbarian historians corroborate the Mosaic story of the Flood.

Pappy Jack · 07-11-2007, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy Jack

Then how does it square with the Dynastic Era in Egypt? .........

I think it squares quite well. Noah and his clan apparently carried a lot of knowledge with them from the pre-Flood world, much of it no doubt on written documents os some type. This knowledge was then preserved and passed on in varying degrees to the different cultures that arose after Babel, of which Egypt was one.

But speculation as to what hypothetical survivors of a hypothetical global Flud carried with them carries no evidential weight. The terms 'apparently' and 'no doubt' do not constitute proof of anything other than opinion.

Dave Hawkins · 07-11-2007, 08:04 AM

Eric ...

Quote:

Dave, I can't help but note you completely failed to address Pappy Jack's figures for population statistics in ancient Egypt, despite the fact that you quoted them in your response. Was this just an oversight?

Many modern people groups -- many Indian groups in the area where my father was, for example -- have lost many life-enhancing aspects of their culture, thus their lifespans are shortened and their infant mortality is higher, etc.

Constant Mews · 07-11-2007, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Eric ...

Quote:

Dave, I can't help but note you completely failed to address Pappy Jack's figures for population statistics in ancient Egypt, despite the fact that you quoted them in your response. Was this just an oversight?

Many modern people groups -- many Indian groups in the area where my father was, for example -- have lost many life-enhancing aspects of their culture, thus their lifespans are shortened and their infant mortality is higher, etc.

Which is proof that the population growth figures you cited were anomalous and it is irrational to use them as a basis for post-flood numbers.

Why do you spend so much effort demolishing your own arguments?

Dave Hawkins · 07-11-2007, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Irrelevant. You need to establish the validity of your Wai wai = Flud survivors' model. You have no more idea of the hygiene standards of the postulated Flud survivors than I have.

Of course I do. The excavations at Ur by Woolley and other excavations indicate a very advanced society complete with high science, astronomy, medicine, formal schooling, etc. in the time frame which would have been shortly after the Flood. This high technology would have logically been carried by Noah's clan. Where else did it come from? Your gradual cultural evolution model over many tens of thousands of years is untenable because you reject such an obvious occurrence in history -- the Global Flood. Once you correct this "beam in the eye", world history starts to make sense.

Pappy Jack · 07-11-2007, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Eric ...

Quote:

Dave, I can't help but note you completely failed to address Pappy Jack's figures for population statistics in ancient Egypt, despite the fact that you quoted them in your response. Was this just an oversight?

Many modern people groups -- many Indian groups in the area where my father was, for example -- have lost many life-enhancing aspects of their culture, thus their lifespans are shortened and their infant mortality is higher, etc.

And compared with many of their contemporaries, the Dynastic Egyptians had developed 'many life-enhancing aspects'. I have no idea what your point is here.

deadman_932 · 07-11-2007, 08:11 AM

Why are you avoiding the substantive objections given to your claims in the last 2 pages-- and going back to one minor thing on the very first page of this thread, Dave?

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07-11-2007, 08:00 AM	#54
Dave Hawkins Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,375	RE: Mike PSS on Josephus ... Josephus is not claiming that there were survivors of the Flood. He is quoting Nicolaus of Damascus who sounds like he is saying this in the English rendering. Josephus' point is ... many barbarian historians corroborate the Mosaic story of the Flood.

07-11-2007, 08:11 AM	#60
deadman_932 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Altadena, California Posts: 3,271	Why are you avoiding the substantive objections given to your claims in the last 2 pages-- and going back to one minor thing on the very first page of this thread, Dave?

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