Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-04-2012, 06:08 PM

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/Jew...aspx?id=251913

stephan huller · 01-14-2012, 04:49 PM

http://www.thestar.com/mobile/articl...by-saadia-gaon

semiopen · 01-15-2012, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Yes, I read it. The article seems to imply that they belonged to the 10 Lost Tribes along the trade route. I don't see why this would have to be the case that they were of the 10 tribes, and why they would have left the scrolls hidden away in a cave.

Read it more carefully. The documents were probably from "the Rhadanites, a group of early medieval Jewish merchants who set up an expansive trade network that connected Europe and Asia. The Rhadanites had mostly disappeared by the 11th century, but the Jewish community remained in Afghanistan until the 20th century."

These Jewish traders might have claimed to be part of the 10 lost tribes of Israel, but then so do the British.

The 10 lost tribes thing is ridiculous. This is only based on the quote of Professor Eisenman

Quote:

“In Afghanistan and northern Pakistan they all say they are the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel and I never knew what they were talking about,” said Eisenman, who visited the country in the ’60s. “If this was part of a Jewish permanent settlement then to my mind it reinforces the mythology that the 10 Lost Tribes were in that part of the world.”

The

Khazars had an origin legend about being part of the ten lost tribes, but they were pretty rabbinic. For this legend to persist in Afghanistan is hardly surprising. The map in the wiki shows that the Khazar empire bordering Afghanistan.

The fragments found hardly suggest a lost tribes origin.

My guess is that Eisenman's comment was misunderstood.

semiopen · 01-17-2012, 07:24 AM

The Radhanites attracted the attention of Samuel Kurinsky.

I got introduced to this obscure character by a Chabad rabbi who is in charge of their "Science" division.

From what I can gather Kurinsky was an amateur historian.

About the Hebrew History Federation

Is set up to preserve his legacy. In some areas he is bizarre such as

Leonardo_da_Vinci being Jewish, and his writings on the invention of the telephone, etc. To his credit, he never claims that

Christopher_Columbus was Jewish, that line of speculation has been refuted relatively recently.

Jewish Traders of the Diaspora

Has some discussion about the Radhanites.

Quote:

The Jewish traders of the Persian period were finally exemplified by the Rhadanites, whose name probably stemmed from the district of Radhan near Baghdad. The Rhadanites were not mere adventurers. They were Talmudic students and the religious, cultural and social liaison between the world-wide-spread Jewish communities. They were entrusted with the collection of communal donations for delivery to the Geonim of Palestine and Babylonia, halachic scholars who headed great centers of learning to which all Jews aspired to send their sons. The Rhadanites brought she'ltot, queries to the sages on law, ritual, and textual exegesis. They returned with teshuvot, the responsa.

These mercantile messengers created the first world-wide credit system. They became the conduits of credit through which many nations conducted business through time and space. "Letters of Credit" issued on one continent would be surely and securely honored months later They were worldly-wise couriers who had entree into royal courts and were commissioned by kings to carry out royal diplomatic missions. The Rhadanites set the standard for Jewish international traders everywhere.

From

Radhanite -

Quote:

The fall of the Tang Dynasty of China in 908 and the destruction of the Khazar Khaganate some sixty years later (circa 968-969 AD) led to widespread chaos in Inner Eurasia, the Caucasus and China. Trade routes became unstable and unsafe, a situation exacerbated by Turkic invasions of Persia and the Middle East, and the Silk Road largely collapsed for centuries. This period saw the rise of the mercantile Italian city-states, especially Genoa, Venice, Pisa, and Amalfi, who viewed the Radhanites as unwanted competitors.

The economy of Europe was profoundly affected by the disappearance of the Radhanites. For example, documentary evidence indicates that many spices in regular use during the early Middle Ages completely disappeared from European tables in the 10th century. Jews had previously, in large parts of Western Europe, enjoyed a virtual monopoly on the spice trade.[17]

Some have speculated that a collection of 11th century Jewish scrolls discovered in a cave in Afghanistan’s Samangan province in 2011 may be a “leftover” of the Rhadanites, who had mostly disappeared by the 11th century.[18]

Interesting subject.

stephan huller · 01-17-2012, 07:52 AM

What is also interesting is that in the very same region you have a number of 'religious rejects' (traditions that died out everywhere else) continuing to flourish or survive. There were Manichaeans and Marcionites in this region too.

judge · 01-18-2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

These Jewish traders might have claimed to be part of the 10 lost tribes of Israel, but then so do the British.

Uh huh..The British people claim to descendents of the ten lost tribes?

You obviously know some different British people to me.

Toto · 01-18-2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

These Jewish traders might have claimed to be part of the 10 lost tribes of Israel, but then so do the British.

Uh huh..The British people claim to descendents of the ten lost tribes?

You obviously know some different British people to me.

Look up "British Israelism" - you might have to wait until wikipedia gets back online.

judge · 01-18-2012, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Uh huh..The British people claim to descendents of the ten lost tribes?

You obviously know some different British people to me.

Look up "British Israelism" - you might have to wait until wikipedia gets back online.

British Israelitism does not mean that British people claim to be descendents of the lost tribes.
British people (or the overwhelming majority) think British Israelitism is ludicrous (if they even give it a second thought). On the other hand there are Americans who believe in British Israelitism.
Do you know any British people?

stephan huller · 01-24-2012, 01:27 PM

More info today:

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012...in-afghanistan

Quote:

But those who have seen the documents, and who are familiar with the shadowy trade in Middle Eastern antiquities, say the fantastic tales of an unsuspecting shepherd happening upon documents of incalculable historic value are not to be believed.

“Generally, you have to be very careful of what a Middle Eastern antiquities dealer tells you,” said Lenny Wolfe, himself a Middle Eastern antiquities dealer based in Jerusalem. “You’re probably safer not believing it.”

What no one disputes is that the documents are authentic and, if they can be made widely available to scholars, can potentially shed light on a period in Jewish history that remains shrouded in mystery.

Quote:

Menashe Goldelman, a London-based expert in Middle Eastern antiquities who has authored a 23-page report on the documents, told JTA that they emerged on the London market several months ago. Goldelman said he had been enlisted by a dealer to sell the documents on his behalf. At present, Goldelman said he was trying to broker an agreement with the various dealers to bring the collection together. Goldelman estimates their total value at about $5 million.

“They are not things that are stolen from an institution or found in a legal excavation,” Goldelman said. “At some point, everything that comes from the ground goes to the black market. The black market, this is the institution that helps to save this material. If something has, let’s say, commercial value, it gets saved. If you don’t have a commercial value for the manuscript, they go and put it in the fireplace.”

Goldelman's involvement may not reassure skittish buyers about their provenance. In 2010, two professors reportedly accused him of trafficking in stolen antiquities and protested his scheduled appearance at a conference in Israel. Goldelman's lawyer denied the accusations and threatened to sue for libel.

None of the experts who have spoken publicly on the matter of the Afghan documents appeared to be too troubled by unanswered questions about their origins, seeming to accept such things as the cost of doing business in ancient artifacts.

stephan huller · 01-24-2012, 01:40 PM

also this

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80M02T20120123

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01-04-2012, 06:08 PM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/Jew...aspx?id=251913

01-14-2012, 04:49 PM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	http://www.thestar.com/mobile/articl...by-saadia-gaon

01-17-2012, 07:52 AM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	What is also interesting is that in the very same region you have a number of 'religious rejects' (traditions that died out everywhere else) continuing to flourish or survive. There were Manichaeans and Marcionites in this region too.

01-24-2012, 01:40 PM	#20
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	also this http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80M02T20120123

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