Faith

I said we will be judged fairly based on our beliefs, how righteously we live, and God's knowledge of what is in our hearts. I don't know how God will judge non-believers, but such parables as The Sheep and the Goats seem to say that kindness and mercy play a role in salvation.

Did Gandhi make it to Heaven despite his lack of conviction that Jesus is the sole path to God? I don't know. He certainly lived a "moral" life and was a "good" person. It's hard to imagine the God in whom I believe punishing a man for living righteously yet not accepting Jesus as his savior. Or to imagine Him condemning a faithful Jew or Muslim to Hell for calling God by a different name than Christians do.



You don't strike me as the type of person who would deny God's existence just so you won't feel guilty about doing bad things. How can He not judge you fairly for having arrived at your belief through much deliberation and soul-searching?



I don't think that's a fair characterization of most Christians. Some of us have actual college educations and degrees and such.

Faith isn't necessarily correlated with diminished intellectual capacity. I for one would love to learn Greek and Hebrew so I could read the Bible in non-translated form.



I think that is a good thing to hope for, miata. More people should strive for peace and understanding. I hope you are finding both in this forum.

Mageth

I'm sorry to keep pressing this, but according to the above it sounds like what you believe doesn't matter much if at all when it comes to judgment, but rather how you live your life and, perhaps, how you choose your beliefs (related to "what's in your heart", I suppose).

So, then, why is the whole "belief in Jesus" thing necessary at all? Was Jesus' role simply to provide us an example on how to live our lives? I can consider Jesus completely fictional and still choose to live a life modeled on at least some of the fictional Jesus' moral teachings and examples.

miata

If this life is all there is we should make the most of it. If I am wrong I we still should make the most of it as it may get worse.

Faith

Jesus spoke of coming to God through Him: I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me. His way? Mercy and love, unselfishness, purity of heart, devotion to God. His truth? God loves us all infinitely and without fail. These messages were altered by early Christians, like Paul, who placed more emphasis on worshipping the Risen Christ than on living like Him or following His teachings.

The traditional profession of faith, We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made. Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end was a product of the early church, it was not taught by Jesus.

Jesus, in contrast, said the following in John 14:

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do.

Salvation, to me, is more dependent on living by Jesus' teachings and His promises in verses like John 14:23-31 than it is on simply saying I'm a Christian (while possibly acting like the farthest thing from it) or reciting a creed written by the early church.

Mageth

It appears to me that you, then, basically agree with my assessment of your position - that "belief in Jesus", or "belief" in general, is really not germane to "judgment" at all, then.

miata

Can we be sure these are his word? A lot is lost is translation. If I took every text for truth in Liviticus I would be in a rubber room. I know we are not to question and that is one reason I stopped at age 12.

It could all be true but how do we know?

Faith

I do not agree that one's beliefs don't factor into judgment. I agree that more is involved than just proclaiming faith in God.

Jesus said loving God and keeping His Word (John 14) are requirements for reaching Heaven. Paul preached that belief in the Resurrected Christ was the way to Heaven. To what extent "belief in Jesus" as Lord and Savior factors in, I'm not sure. But it seems scripturally clear that reaching Heaven is dependent upon faith in God's existence at the very least.

Mageth

Well, this all seems a bit confusing to me. I understand what you're saying here, and understand that that is what you believe, but I'm still having a hard time reconciling everything you've said on this thread about the subject. For example, previously you said, in regards to me:

"You don't strike me as the type of person who would deny God's existence just so you won't feel guilty about doing bad things. How can He not judge you fairly for having arrived at your belief through much deliberation and soul-searching? "

And you've said:

"I don't know how God will judge non-believers, but such parables as The Sheep and the Goats seem to say that kindness and mercy play a role in salvation."

But, according to your most recent post quoted above, since I definitely don't have "faith in God's existence", according to scripture I won't reach Heaven (which you seem to agree with) and, thus, will end up in the "other place", whatever that may entail. And yet I've reached this position of non-belief through much deliberation and soul-searching and not to "escape guilt", as you rightly discerned.

So, do you think that's "fair judgment" for me? In prohibiting me from heaven, and thus relegating me to the "other place", is God showing me "kindness and mercy"?

And also note that, paradoxically, if and when I stand before the Judgment Seat of God, I will definitely believe in God. And yet God will not allow me into heaven because I don't (or didn't) believe in him? God's judgment over belief only counts for this life, when there is insufficient evidence to be positive about your beliefs, and not for the afterlife, when there is more than enough evidence?

Honestly, the whole system simply doesn't add up to me. These kinds of dilemmas, once I got to thinking seriously about them, helped lead me to a position of non-belief. If a God exists, surely he could have come up with something better than this.

Faith

Mageth,
Evidence is a wonderful thing, and I understand the desire for it. Jesus did too, which is why He told Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Let me ask you this: What do you think should be your eternal fate as an atheist assuming God exists? Do you think it should be the same as someone who lived a good and faithful life? Do you think it should be the same as someone who claimed to be a Christian yet murdered millions of Jews? Do you think it should be the same as a non-believing serial killer?

And would you even want to be with God in the kingdom of Heaven if He were sitting before you and gave you that choice?

I don't know how God will pass judgment, I only know that it'll be fair. He says to seek Him and you'll find Him. He says to love Him and follow His word, and you'll be with Him for all eternity. That seems very clear and creates no cognitive dissonance within me.

Yahzi

If you can accept this kind of uncertainty, why not just settle for science?

But of course, when it comes to the question of whether or not you will go to heaven, all the uncertainty evaporates.