Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
02-27-2007, 07:53 AM | #11 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
|
Quote:
I think it is likely however that he knew a lot about James, and wrote more about him, though it no longer exists. Eisenman has argued that the election of Mathias originally was about the election of James to head the church. He has also argued that the stoning of Stephen, witnessed by Paul (then Saul) was actually about an attack on James by Paul! In any case, I agree with Eisenman at the least that the absence of information about James by the author(s) of Acts is is quite strange, and may well reflect an intentional later editing of the text. Consider this: James, the first leader of the initial church is never even introduced in Acts. He just appears suddenly for the first time in Chapter 12 "Report these things to James and the brothers", clearly already an important figure, but with no introduction whatsoever. Then in Chapter 15 James makes the all-important decision about Paul's Gentile mission, though again his position is not even explained. The 3rd and last time he is mentioned is in 21:17-18 "When we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. On the following day Paul went in with us to James; and all the elders were present." James, the first leader of the Church, is greatly minimized in Acts. This seems intentional to me. However, for a document which is giving us the history of the development of the early church, it seems likely that there was once an original passage discussing James' rise to power. Surely there was at least something! If so, that would have been the place to mention more about James, especially a biological relationship. One can reasonably assume that there must have been SOME reason a non-disciple was chosen, which the author of Acts knew about. Of course, that isn't evidence. Just speculation. ted |
|
02-27-2007, 04:40 PM | #12 |
Regular Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 315
|
Galatians 1:19 (King James Version)
19But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Stuart Shepherd |
02-27-2007, 08:39 PM | #13 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
|
Quote:
ted |
|
02-28-2007, 03:23 PM | #14 | |||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Bernardino, Calif.
Posts: 5,435
|
Quote:
It does seem to be an early tradition. The author of Acts might have unintentionally started it. It seems even likely that he did if, as I suspect, he was not even attempting to write a factual history. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
02-28-2007, 04:43 PM | #15 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
|
Re: the minimizing of James in Acts
Quote:
Galations: He is one of the top 3 pillars, listed first by Paul when they gave their decision. And, one of the other 3, Peter, changed his ways when men from James went to Antioch. Gospel of Thomas: Jesus appoints him as his successor to lead the Church In addition to the implication of Acts, generally believed to have been written by 100AD, the testimony of the later works is unanimous. Do you not think the later tradition retained even a kernal of truth about something which would have been both extremely important, and embarrasing at the same time? From the Catholic Encyclopedia: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
ted |
||||
03-01-2007, 02:08 AM | #16 | ||||||||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Bernardino, Calif.
Posts: 5,435
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have said several times that I don't doubt James was a leader of the Jerusalem church. Paul makes it obvious that he was. But Paul makes it just as obvious that Peter also was a leader. I agree that there are suggestions in Paul's writings that James outranked Peter in some sense, but they are only suggestions, and I would not assume in any event that Paul's reporting on their relationship and interactions was strictly accurate. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||||||
03-01-2007, 07:01 AM | #17 | |||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We have good reasons for the author of Acts to have known more and been motivated to write more about James, and we have good reasons for later revisions to have taken out certain information about James, leaving us with what is now there--3 brief mentions of James in an implied role as church leader, without any further information. Without these motivations, the absence of information in Acts about James is strange to me. With them, it makes sense, as does the lack of description of James as being one of the brothers of Jesus. ted |
|||
03-06-2007, 11:47 AM | #18 | |||||||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
|
I'm adding this to my JM book, I think it's a pretty good lock against the claim that "the brother of the Lord" mentioned by Paul meant that James was a literal brother of Jesus (if its not an interpolation):
In Acts of the Apostles the travels of Paul are discussed as well as the actions of James, and in Acts of the Apostles James is never called a brother of Jesus. Literal brothers of Jesus are also mentioned one time in Acts, but none of their names are given. In addition, the term "the brothers" is used several times to talk about some group of people, which seems to include James. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But let's look at this introduction and mention of Jesus' brothers more closely: Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps more important than all of this, however, is the context of Paul's passage itself. In the passage Paul is saying very strongly that his message comes from Jesus directly by revelation and that he didn't get his message from anyone else, and he says that he had his gospel before he went to Jerusalem, where he only met with Cephas (Peter?) and he saw none of the other apostles... oh, except for James. He then swears that what he is saying is true, but he isn't swearing that he met the brother of Jesus, he is swearing that he didn't meet with anyone else. James is mentioned here as a minor figure and with no real concern. Wouldn't Paul have something more to say in his letters about a literal brother of Jesus? In Galatians 2 Paul goes on to insinuate that James was leading people astray. Quote:
All of this hardly makes sense if James is the literal brother of the most powerful being in the universe, or one of the most powerful beings if Paul did not see Jesus as God himself. Paul called James "the Lord's brother", and if this means the literal brother of Jesus Christ, who is an eternal being that just abolished sin and transcended death, then Paul would certainly have talked about this person in some manner differently than what we see from him. If nothing else, if Paul thought that Jesus was a real person and that this was his real brother he surely would have conveyed some information about the life of Jesus from this brother of his, but Paul treats James no differently than Peter and the other apostles, indeed he views him as lesser than Peter (Cephas). In order to maintain that the James that Paul mentioned as a pillar is a literal brother of Jesus, and not instead the James who is listed among the apostles, one would have to hold that no one else in the 1st century made this relationship clear, even in the several writings where it would have been appropriate to do so. Against the claim that Paul clearly shows the James who was a pillar of the movement to be a literal brother of Jesus we have the following pieces of early Christian references to this same James:
Given that all of the other early sources speak against this James being a literal brother of Jesus, and given the nature of Paul's mention of this James, it is inconceivable that Paul is calling James a literal brother of Jesus. If that James was a literal brother of Jesus it seems that none of the other early Christians realized it, and indeed the author of Acts contradicted it. |
|||||||||
03-06-2007, 12:26 PM | #19 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,579
|
Quote:
Paul's letters confirm the commonality of the 'brother' designation in the churches. Jiri |
|
03-06-2007, 12:35 PM | #20 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
|
Does that change anything about the reading or affect my point in any way? (A serious question by the way. I wish I knew Greek )
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|