aa5874

It is least likely that Acts of the Apostles was used by Justin Martyr. There is a Big Black Hole of 120 years in Justin Martyr's writings which was EXPECTED if Jesus did NOT exist and had NO disciples and there was NO Paul.

Justin Martyr wrote NOTHING of the Four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline letters, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, the Bishops of Rome, or any bishops of any region or city.

It is extremely important to understand that Justin IDENTIFIED that the Memoirs of the Apostles was read in the Churches--Not the Pauline letters, nor gMark, gMatthew, gLuke and gJohn.

DCHindley

Hi luca,

The idea that supernatural beings control physical events is actually pretty widespread, at least in Greek (Plato assumed them), Medio-Persian-Babylonian (Magian priests were renound for being able to control them) and Egyptian worldviews (at least since the Greeks took control). The first two examples must push such ideas back at least to the 6th century BCE.

The OT seems to only reflect belief that spirits of the dead can be called upon to answer questions, and that afflictions can be soothed by music. That means if the Jews picked up on the idea, it was after the OT was more or less finalized, which was likely around the time when the deportees started to return to Yahud (Judah). I recall reading somewhere that there are hints that Israelites who were deported to Media by the Assyrians were also allowed to return to Samaria.

There was a lot of cultural exchange going on between the returned Jews and those who remained in Babylon (mainly Babylonian Jews emigrating to Judah), under control of the Persians.

R H Charles noted that what turned out to be the oldest Enoch document (the Book of Watchers, oldest DSS manuscript 3rd century BCE) already shows signs of influence by Hellenic ideas. To be fair, there are internal hints in the BoW that it was composed in Samaria or more likely in Iturea (just north of Galilee, but who may have been partly populated by descendants Israelites), although its popularity in Judea was very strong as well. This books attributes demons to the offspring of the union of Angelic Watchers and human females, although this does not appear to be a belief from Persian Zoroastrianism. So, it shows this odd mixture of Israelitish and Hellenic influence all hinged on an expanded account of the origin of Giants in Genesis.

In the eyes of the Greeks (and Romans), the peoples believed to have the knowledge to manipulate the intermediary spirits which get things dome on earth, were the Persian Magi (who invented the idea), the Egyptians (who picked up on it from both Persians and Greeks) and the Jews (who picked up on it from Persians and Greeks and Egyptians).

Morton Smith wrote a book entitled Jesus the Magician (or via: amazon.co.uk) which outlined the common ideas about demons and how they can be controlled as they existed in Mesopotamia (Persian), the Hellenic world (who may have got some of their ideas from the Persians) and Egypt (through the Greek and Demotic magical papyri), and how the depictions of the actions of Jesus could be interpreted as application of magical technique.

Smith, in a response to a negative review, both printed in the NT Review of Books in Oct and Dec 1978, he summarizes the book this way:

... [T]he argument of Jesus the Magician, ... runs as follows:
(1) Almost all current accounts of Jesus are based on the canonical gospels written by his followers.
(2) A historian should ask what those who were not his followers thought about him.
(3) Evidence from the gospels and other sources shows they thought him a magician.
(4) What they meant by “magician” must be determined by comparison of Jesus with other men of his time who were so called.
(5) This comparison reveals a social type which Jesus resembled; it also yields a plausible account of his career.
(6) This account of his career is confirmed by comparison of the gospels with magical texts found mainly in papyri contemporary with the gospel manuscripts; in point after point the gospels’ accounts agree with the magicians’ claims and prescriptions.

DCH

aa5874

That argument is a MASSIVE CIRCULAR argument. The stories about Jesus MUST MATCH stories of antiquity whether or not they are actual events if the author wrote at that that time period.

The similarities in the Jesus stories and other stories may only signify when the stories were composed and NOT the VERACITY of the stories themselves.

Similarities in Comic book characters found a thousand years from now do NOT attest to their historical accuracy but that they may have been written around the same time period.

The quantity of fallacies that surround the Quest for an HJ is astounding.

We have the short-ending gMark and NOTHING in it is historically accurate--total fiction-- with respect to Jesus so it does NOT matter whether or not there are similar fictional accounts in other books of antiquity.

luca

I agree this is a possible explanation of the appearance of exorcism around Jesus' times (i.e. the "demons" were introduced in Judaea by Romans and hellenization); but still this does not clarify (to me at least)
a) why earlier prophets, that so strongly condemned apostasy, foreign cults, etc , did not show their power by casting out demons; if the answer is that demons are a post-exilic invention, then why did the Jews lose much of their interest in exorcism in later centuries?
b) why did Jesus act in full conformity to the Scriptures in everything he did (or rather was described by the gospel writers as doing so) except for as concerns exorcism, who was practically unknown in the Old Testament ?
It's because the story of a itinerant exorcist was earlier than the story of a Son of God?

sotto voce

Those with good memories who previously read the whole thread will know that the above is redundant.

Solo

Neither demons nor exorcism have been introduced in historical times. Beliefs in possession have always been present as a way to explain sudden appearance of grossly disordered or psychotic behaviour in an individual. This is one of the universal beliefs of all ages and cultures on the planet. Freud himself said that "demon possession" describes rather well an acute phase of dementia. People actually do look like they are not themselves and have been "entered" by a fierce, alien spirit.

Like possession, exorcism is very old. The practice rests on the belief that the "demon possession" is not permanent, and that the demon is an entity which can be frightened off by a greater power. Partially, this belief is due to observation how psychotics behave. Very often their outbursts subside of themselves and they are in partial or full remission of symptoms of mental illness. The exorcisms, or expelling of demons, is often attempted by crude, physical manipulation - even torture - but only a small percentage of the patients would be responsive. It is a known effect of agitated psychosis that the ability to feel pain is either highly diminished, or the "normal rational" will to avoid pain is compromised. Psychotic symptoms and behaviour are a complex internal response to changes of brain chemistry which distorts perceptions and ability to process "reality" in an orderly cognitive manner. The causes are organic, whether a result of psychoactive substances, brain injury, or an internal physiological process. Take a peek here.

Best,
Jiri

sotto voce

That's Freud chasing his own tail. There's no reason to doubt that demon-possessed people may appear in every way normal, revealing their natures only in particular circumstances, and sometimes only to particular people.