Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Barefoot Bree · 02-06-2006, 06:32 PM

Hey, Mark, I have an idea. Were the actual questions used in that survey printed anywhere? I would be interested to know the results if you put that survey to your own parishoners.

cydonia · 02-06-2006, 07:15 PM

I don't know, the "grace of God" that would totally blow me away is if I died, and was totally wrong (meaning there's an after life), if Jesus would say, "Dude, don't worry about it. You didn't kill anyone, you did your best to get along with others, and your heart's in the right place. If you want, there's plenty of room". That would rock my world.

But from everything I've heard from my family and other christians, I will say "hey, Can't a Skeptic Make an Honest Mistake?"

And the Lord will say, "Dude, I TOLD YOU! Via fallible men in a fallible book. Why you didn't listen, I don't know. You're screwed. Please tell me you're not wearing that sweater."

And I will kick myself for eternity.

Tigers! · 02-06-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarmMama

Probably because it isn't true.

Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith in response to comments on an article he published recently entitled An Atheist Manifesto.

Here are a few lines and a link to the article itself:

3. Religion is our only source of morality. Without it, we would be plunged into a secular moral chaos.

This concern is so widespread that I have responded to it at some length. A version of this response will soon be published in the magazine Free Inquiry (Council for Secular Humanism) as “The Myth of Secular Moral Chaos.�?

If a book like the bible were the only reliable blueprint for human decency that we have, it would be impossible (both practically and logically) to criticize it in moral terms. But it is extraordinarily easy to criticize the morality one finds in bible, as most of it is simply odious and incompatible with a civil society.

If religion were necessary for morality, there should some evidence that atheists are less moral than believers. But evidence for this is in short supply, and there is much evidence to the contrary.

If religion really provided the only conceivable, objective basis for morality, it should be impossible to posit a non-theistic, objective basis for morality. But it is not impossible; it is rather easy.

continued....................

I'm a bit concerned about that last point. There are an awful lot of people on these fora espcially MF&P would would disagree with your objective basis for morality.

Tigers! · 02-06-2006, 08:48 PM

Tigers! here

I am curious about posts #35 & 36 saying that I thought questing was bad, when did I say that?
I have been working quite hard lately but I didn't think that I was that forgetful.:wave:
Too many threads - not enough time.

Azygos · 02-06-2006, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ligesh

Very wrong. Atheists are under-represented in prisons. A believer is more likely to break the law or embark on seriously risky ventures, because he thinks God is actively protecting him. IN fact, almost 99.8% of the criminals in US prisons are theists.

I have come up with an evolutionary explanation for religion which actually predicts this: That is more religious people will have a tendency to undertake activities that are physically risky. And thus Gods encourage both war and crime.

--
:: Ligesh :: http://ligesh.com

->> In religions which are based solely on belief, on an extra cosmic god, the idea of 'god on your side' emerges........

->> A theist or atheist can both indulge in crime........a theist has conviction of god protecting him, an atheist has conviction of no god punishing him

cydonia · 02-06-2006, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azygos

->> In religions which are based solely on belief, on an extra cosmic god, the idea of 'god on your side' emerges........

->> A theist or atheist can both indulge in crime........a theist has conviction of god protecting him, an atheist has conviction of no god punishing him

Your own conscience punishes you or keeps you on track. I'm frankly terrified with the idea that the ONLY reason someone may not commit a crime is because a BOOK told them not to.

ligesh · 02-07-2006, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azygos

->> In religions which are based solely on belief, on an extra cosmic god, the idea of 'god on your side' emerges........

->> A theist or atheist can both indulge in crime........a theist has conviction of god protecting him, an atheist has conviction of no god punishing him

The point is: NO ONE ever thinks he is doing anything immoral, whatever be his actions. The concept of TRUE morality can only be understood through intelligence. So neither a believer nor a non-believer ever thinks that a God will punish them. That's the point.

::: Neither the Believer nor the atheist believes that God will punish him.

::: The believer will actually think God is protecting him.

Of course, it changes with intelligence. The more the intelligence (actually reality awareness), more neutral the God is, and thus more it will act as a moral enforcer. But less the intelligence, God will be private property, and thus God's sole purpose is to help the guy whatever he wants to do.

God is the supernatural agency who will help the believer put a knife on the back of his best friend, if the need so arises. That is why we have a Jihadi. He is entirely confident that God is actively protecting him from harm. He never ever thinks any of his actions--which is actually rape/massacre innocent people--amounts to being immoral.

If the Christian God exists, EVERY one will go to hell. But surveys show that only 4% believe that they will end up in hell.

--
:: Ligesh :: http://ligesh.com

AV-98 Ingram · 02-07-2006, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rakyeltzen

Maybe it is more religeous groups that do big bad things but statistically, I've heard an atheist is more likely to break the law because it is not against their religeous belifes as well. No one told me that when I joined the forum.

Can you please provide us with those statistics, please? Last time I heard, the vast majority of people in prison were theists (Mostly Muslims and Christians)...

Worldtraveller · 02-07-2006, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV-98 Ingram

Can you please provide us with those statistics, please? Last time I heard, the vast majority of people in prison were theists (Mostly Muslims and Christians)...

Since no one seems to like google here.....

Check this thread for the prison statistics.

Needless to say, every single peice of evidence (not that evidence has ever mattered to most of those with faith) shows the opposite of the 'theists are more moral' claim.

Cheers,
Lane

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02-06-2006, 06:32 PM	#41
Barefoot Bree Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: East of ginger trees Posts: 12,637	Hey, Mark, I have an idea. Were the actual questions used in that survey printed anywhere? I would be interested to know the results if you put that survey to your own parishoners.

02-06-2006, 07:15 PM	#42
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	I don't know, the "grace of God" that would totally blow me away is if I died, and was totally wrong (meaning there's an after life), if Jesus would say, "Dude, don't worry about it. You didn't kill anyone, you did your best to get along with others, and your heart's in the right place. If you want, there's plenty of room". That would rock my world. But from everything I've heard from my family and other christians, I will say "hey, Can't a Skeptic Make an Honest Mistake?" And the Lord will say, "Dude, I TOLD YOU! Via fallible men in a fallible book. Why you didn't listen, I don't know. You're screwed. Please tell me you're not wearing that sweater." And I will kick myself for eternity.

02-06-2006, 08:48 PM	#44
Tigers! Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: On the wing, waiting for a kick Posts: 2,558	Tigers! here I am curious about posts #35 & 36 saying that I thought questing was bad, when did I say that? I have been working quite hard lately but I didn't think that I was that forgetful.:wave: Too many threads - not enough time.

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