Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nero's Boot · 07-08-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nero's Boot

Why does your God hate gays?

And thieves. And adulterers. And perverts, liars, cheats, swindlers. You forgot to weep over rapists, murderers, child abusers....

The certainty with which people make something manufactured 10 years ago into a eternal verity is pretty chilling. Worse is the hate displayed to any who fail to conform.

Still, if we didn't know that unnatural vice was an evil, we could find out by the type of arguments used to defend it. The best thing is to imagine some other evil, and see if the same arguments could be used to "justify" it. If they can, they're specious.

....:banghead:

.....you don't see a difference between two male lovers having sex, and a man raping a woman?

--that....wow, just wow NB

Tristan Scott · 07-08-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nero's Boot

Why does your God hate gays?

And thieves. And adulterers. And perverts, liars, cheats, swindlers. You forgot to weep over rapists, murderers, child abusers....

You forgot episcopalians.

Back Again · 07-08-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nero's Boot

....:banghead:

.....you don't see a difference between two male lovers having sex, and a man raping a woman?

--that....wow, just wow NB

There are no victimless crimes! We've been over this before. God is straight and he likes to watch (along with Jesus and Santa Claus). Gay sex creeps them out.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm not sure about Roger's views on the topic but I think his point was that arnoldo singled out one "sin" from a long list. Ironic that this is the one he chose...one without a victim.

arnoldo · 07-08-2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Again

. . .There are no victimless crimes! . .

Should prostitution/drug use/polygamy, etc be legalized since it's a victimless crime?

Nero's Boot · 07-08-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Again

. . .There are no victimless crimes! . .

Should prostitution/drug use/polygamy, etc be legalized since it's a victimless crime?

Drug use? No. That ruins lives on a major scale.

But polygamy and prostitution?

--sure, why not NB

Toto · 07-08-2009, 05:17 PM

[staffwarn]Please stick to a discussion of ancient history and avoid inflammatory topics.[/staffwarn]

bacht · 07-09-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nero's Boot

Arnoldo:

It doesn't matter which authority came up with the notion; what matters is that the Abrahamic faiths adopted it as gospel. Homosexual sexual activity hurts no one, and, like heterosexual couplings, can and often will result in life-long, loving relationships.

--no amount of Hand-Wavium can hide the fact your religion embraces some very nasty ideas NB

It hurts you when your gay son doesn't produce an heir to inherit the birthright. It hurts when you can't marry your gay son to the daughter of your neighbor that has more goats than you do. It also hurts when your gay son's lover makes a move on your property and holdings. It's much safer to stone him to death and then embrace your straight son who plays by the rules. There's also the independent but correlating issue of effeminacy. You don't want to hand your empire over to a man that you perceive to act like a woman. You have to put on your bronze age goat-herder glasses to understand this. Right or wrong, the "sins" of today were pragmatic guidelines in the past.

You're spoiling the fun, we're supposed to be mocking ignorant dead people, isn't that what enlightened moderns do?

arnoldo · 07-09-2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This article is making the rounds of email lists:

When Same-Sex Marriage Was a Christian Rite

Quote:

. . . St. Sergius and St. Bacchus, two Roman soldiers who were Christian martyrs. These two officers in the Roman army incurred the anger of Emperor Maximian when they were exposed as ‘secret Christians’ by refusing to enter a pagan temple. Both were sent to Syria circa 303 CE where Bacchus is thought to have died while being flogged. Sergius survived torture but was later beheaded. Legend says that Bacchus appeared to the dying Sergius as an angel, telling him to be brave because they would soon be reunited in heaven.

While the pairing of saints, particularly in the early Christian church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded as particularly intimate. Severus, the Patriarch of Antioch (AD 512 - 518) explained that, "we should not separate in speech they [Sergius and Bacchus] who were joined in life". This is not a case of simple "adelphopoiia." In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the "sweet companion and lover" of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus's close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as "erastai,” or "lovers". In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.

The source of this appears to be Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century (or via: amazon.co.uk) by John Boswell. (Also on Google Books.)

There is also a collection of essays reacting to Boswell's thesis: The Boswell Thesis: Essays on Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Review by Camille Paglia of Same Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe

There is a more positive review (actual a reaction to a negative review) here.

John_Boswell notes:

Quote:

Rites of so-called "same-sex union" (Boswell's proposed translation) occur in ancient prayer-books of both the western and eastern churches. They are rites of adelphopoiesis, literally Greek for the making of brothers. Boswell, despite the fact that the rites explicitly state that the union involved in adelphopoiesis is a "spiritual" and not a "carnal" one, argued that these should be regarded as sexual unions similar to marriage. This is a highly controversial point of Boswell's text, as other scholars have dissenting views of this interpretation, and believe that they were instead rites of becoming adopted brothers, or "blood brothers".

Is there any more current information on how well Boswell's thesis has stood up?

From the reviews, a large part of Boswell's argument centers around an accurate look at historical marriages, involving loveless financial arrangements between two clans for the purpose of preserving property and producing children on the side. If marriage was such an unfortunate institution, what would be the point of same sex marriage?

In addition, my impression was that marriage was not an especially favored institution in early Christianity, and many references to marriage are symbolic (bride of Christ and all).

Do you have any sources which led you to that impression?

Back Again · 07-09-2009, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nero's Boot

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Should prostitution/drug use/polygamy, etc be legalized since it's a victimless crime?

Drug use? No. That ruins lives on a major scale.

But polygamy and prostitution?

--sure, why not NB

I'll give a quick answer despite warnings from the mods...but I'll refrain from any more off topic comments on this thread:

Prostitution industry would have to be regulated or else it victimizes the women involved. I'm not sure I want my tax dollars directed there. I have no issue in theory with people selling sex.

Polygamy? It creates issue with insurance and other benefits including inheritance. I don't care how many sexual partners someone can juggle however.

Drugs? Laws should be based strictly on addictive nature and pharmeceutical ratio. Addicts of any kind are a problem in society as is accidental death/injury. I could care less if someone gets high safely.

Back Again · 07-09-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

You're spoiling the fun, we're supposed to be mocking ignorant dead people, isn't that what enlightened moderns do?

Ha ha...no fun spoiling...well maybe.

I had a point though. We tend to get caught up in relatively modern views on sexuality but really these modern morally-absolute views originated from adoption of ancient texts that have been accepted as the inerrant word of god. Homosexual relationships (and other sexual "sins") should be treated by modern Christians the same way as, for example, eating pork or shellfish or not working on the Sabbath (which is NOT Sunday).

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07-08-2009, 05:17 PM	#26
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	[staffwarn]Please stick to a discussion of ancient history and avoid inflammatory topics.[/staffwarn]

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