Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 03-07-2009, 12:47 PM

Since we have a thread just below here on the Dead Sea Scrolls, initiated by "Charles Gadda", I think we need to be aware of this developing story. From the NTGateway site:

This has to be one of the most remarkable stories to break in our area in recent times, and there are plenty to choose from. Jim Davila reports on the "strange and sad" story over on Paleojudaica, with a follow-up this morning, the Golb Arrest, as Raphael Golb, son of the Dead Sea Scrolls scholar Norman Golb, is arrested "for creating multiple aliases to engage in a campaign of impersonation and harassment relating to the Dead Sea Scrolls and scholars of opposing viewpoints" (News Release). Jim West is on top of the story over on his blog, The Arrest of Raphael Golb, with regular updates.

The arrest came hot on the heels of Robert Cargill's "Who is Charles Gadda" website. Its URL http://www.who-is-charles-gadda.com now redirects to the news release about the arrest of Golb, but Cargill's fascinating site can still be read over in his sandbox at Wikipedia, Who is Charles Gadda?, and he continues to update the page with all the latest information.

The aliases are listed at Robert Cargill's site.

Toto · 03-07-2009, 12:54 PM

This has been discussed in that thread. I might as well split out the posts and merge them with this.

Toto · 03-07-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

...
So here's "Chaz Gatta," who from the start had an axe to grind. Even here, where every kind of loose cannon gets some interest, he didn't seem to get much response. Look at the guy who keeps hounding Jeffrey Gibson, who posts countless messages in every forum and created elaborate web pages filled with rants. We have a couple members like that right here.

Why do some people feel compelled to do these kind of things (angry outbursts, "debate" tricks, name-calling, personal attacks, et cetera)? Maybe because my undergrad major in college was psychology, I tend to think that these folks have established certain "facts" as key to their understanding of the world. When confronted with challenges to these facts, they are unable to accept the new information and rearrange their psychological structure that allow them to cope, and instead take defensive positions which they will protect to any extreme rather than accept even the possibility of the alternatives.

A simple lookup of Leon Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance or even Sigmund Freud's psychological "defence mechanisms" will provide many examples of exactly these kinds of responses to "threat."

DCH

But in this case, both sides are accusing each other of this sort of cognitive dissonance.

Gadda did not make any converts here because his charges were always over the top. He was not content to just state his case, but he had to portray anyone on the other side as part of a vast Christian antisemitic conspiracy that included, somehow, people who were not Christian or antisemitic. And I tried to point out to him at one point that the emotional tenor of these charges just made his targets write him off as a crank, rather than being willing to engage him in discussion.

I would just expect someone with his level of academic achievement to know a bit more about techniques of persuasion (and/or do a better job of hiding his tracks.)

DCHindley · 03-07-2009, 05:36 PM

No, they are not accusing one another of cognitive dissonance. They are themselves experiencing cognitive dissonance, and reacting defensively.

But that is only one of several usual reactions to that sense of dissonance we experience when we are confronted with facts that contradict our prevailing assumptions. Luckily, most people can take moderate dissonance in stride, either accepting the new facts or rejecting the facts as incorrect (perhaps after investigating for themselves whether they really mean what they heard they did), and working out a rationalization into their world view.

The force of the reaction, whether it is in the direction of acceptance or rejection, will be directly in proportion to the sense of dissonance the new fact elicits in him/her. For some folks, there is something about the DSS (or the historicity of the OT, or the implications of the existence of Q) that scares the hell out of them. It scares them so much that they are ready to abandon all their rational, normal-life behavior and become name callers and bullies to make that dissonance go away. In a way, they are shooting the messenger.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But in this case, both sides are accusing each other of this sort of cognitive dissonance.

Gadda did not make any converts here because his charges were always over the top. He was not content to just state his case, but he had to portray anyone on the other side as part of a vast Christian antisemitic conspiracy that included, somehow, people who were not Christian or antisemitic. And I tried to point out to him at one point that the emotional tenor of these charges just made his targets write him off as a crank, rather than being willing to engage him in discussion.

I would just expect someone with his level of academic achievement to know a bit more about techniques of persuasion (and/or do a better job of hiding his tracks.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

...
So here's "Chaz Gatta," who from the start had an axe to grind. Even here, where every kind of loose cannon gets some interest, he didn't seem to get much response. Look at the guy who keeps hounding Jeffrey Gibson, who posts countless messages in every forum and created elaborate web pages filled with rants. We have a couple members like that right here.

Why do some people feel compelled to do these kind of things (angry outbursts, "debate" tricks, name-calling, personal attacks, et cetera)? Maybe because my undergrad major in college was psychology, I tend to think that these folks have established certain "facts" as key to their understanding of the world. When confronted with challenges to these facts, they are unable to accept the new information and rearrange their psychological structure that allow them to cope, and instead take defensive positions which they will protect to any extreme rather than accept even the possibility of the alternatives.

A simple lookup of Leon Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance or even Sigmund Freud's psychological "defence mechanisms" will provide many examples of exactly these kinds of responses to "threat."

DCH

XKV8R · 03-07-2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Could we either get on with the topic of this thread or start another thread in some other forum? This is supposed to be BC&H. Thanks.

spin

spin is simply upset because he spent the past two years siding with an alias, the alias of a man who spent the past two years smearing the opponents of his father (and who spent last night in jail).

so ya, i can see why spin wouldn't want to talk about this anymore. ;-)

xkv8r

mountainman · 03-08-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XKV8R

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Could we either get on with the topic of this thread or start another thread in some other forum? This is supposed to be BC&H. Thanks.

spin

spin is simply upset because he spent the past two years siding with an alias, the alias of a man who spent the past two years smearing the opponents of his father (and who spent last night in jail).

so ya, i can see why spin wouldn't want to talk about this anymore. ;-)

xkv8r

I hope ur not trying to bully spin xkv8r.
We do not know whether the opponents of "Charles" father were "smearable".
There are always two sides to any "siding" - even yours.
There are alot of seriously inept new testament platformers.
I dont even know if ur one.
How was the divinity Masters Dr. Cargill?
Enlightening?

We dont know the court outcome yet.
Like you said, there's alot of evidence as yet perhaps "unpresented".
And what are your "sidings"? We know its obviously Anti-"Charles"
A Logger of theMisbehavior of Cyber-Bullies?
What bullying is greater than "christian bullying"?
“Does Archaeology indeed Illuminate the New Testament?” ?
Really?
And truly?
Did you argue in that paper for the affirmative or the negative?
A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

spin · 03-08-2009, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XKV8R

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Could we either get on with the topic of this thread or start another thread in some other forum? This is supposed to be BC&H. Thanks.

spin is simply upset because he spent the past two years siding with an alias, the alias of a man who spent the past two years smearing the opponents of his father (and who spent last night in jail).

so ya, i can see why spin wouldn't want to talk about this anymore.

I'll happily carve you up here if you wanna try to defend the evidenceless Essene Hypothesis. I go for arguments, not people, so, if you wanna call yourself XKV8R, that's fine by me; just show me the color of your evidence. That's what'll buy you in.

Judging by your efforts on Wikipedia I would have thought you'd crapped on enough about Charles Gadda et al. But if you must continue, I do hope you'd be nice and do it elsewhere.

spin

XKV8R · 03-08-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by XKV8R

may i now rejoin this discussion? ... as i recall, the last time i posted on this board ....

Perhaps a little off-topic but I noticed on your user page a reference to a presentation entitled:

“Does Archaeology Illuminate the New Testament?”
Presented at the “Give Me An Answer” Lecture Series
in Huntington Beach, CA, July 11, 2004.

I would be very interested to read a copy of this.
Is this possible?

Best wishes,

Pete

pete, i don't have a copy. that was a lecture i put together for a church that had invited me to speak about the bible and archaeology. i got invited to do a lot of that stuff after the nicole kidman story broke. i basically went into a friday evening lecture at a church and showed how science and the biblical stories don't always line up. they actually received it quite well, though not everyone was thrilled. i showed the real role of archaeology - not to prove the bible, but to offer a scientific narrative of history.

-bc

XKV8R · 03-08-2009, 08:27 AM

mountain and spin -

relax. i'll leave you both to your noble realm. i certainly don't want to interfere with the ministries you've got going here. if you want a scholarly debate with me, submit a paper to sbl or asor. publish an article. write a book. i'll respond.

my interest here was only observation and tracking and the occasional 'get them to talk' posts. thanx for playing along. ;-)

carry on gentlealiases. return to your business....

(i'm still chuckling. really? 'i'll carve you up'? really? 'christian bullying'? lol.)

shalom - bc

XKV8R · 03-08-2009, 08:31 AM

[QUOTE=spin;5838602]

Quote:

Originally Posted by XKV8R

I'll happily carve you up here if you wanna try to defend the evidenceless Essene Hypothesis.

spin

you do know i don't call them essenes, right... lol.

bye mr. h. -bc

03-07-2009, 12:47 PM	#21
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	"Charles Gadda" - the arrest of Raphael Golb Since we have a thread just below here on the Dead Sea Scrolls, initiated by "Charles Gadda", I think we need to be aware of this developing story. From the NTGateway site: This has to be one of the most remarkable stories to break in our area in recent times, and there are plenty to choose from. Jim Davila reports on the "strange and sad" story over on Paleojudaica, with a follow-up this morning, the Golb Arrest, as Raphael Golb, son of the Dead Sea Scrolls scholar Norman Golb, is arrested "for creating multiple aliases to engage in a campaign of impersonation and harassment relating to the Dead Sea Scrolls and scholars of opposing viewpoints" (News Release). Jim West is on top of the story over on his blog, The Arrest of Raphael Golb, with regular updates. The arrest came hot on the heels of Robert Cargill's "Who is Charles Gadda" website. Its URL http://www.who-is-charles-gadda.com now redirects to the news release about the arrest of Golb, but Cargill's fascinating site can still be read over in his sandbox at Wikipedia, Who is Charles Gadda?, and he continues to update the page with all the latest information. The aliases are listed at Robert Cargill's site.

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03-07-2009, 12:54 PM	#22
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This has been discussed in that thread. I might as well split out the posts and merge them with this.

03-08-2009, 08:27 AM	#29
XKV8R Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: ucla, southern california Posts: 140	mountain and spin - relax. i'll leave you both to your noble realm. i certainly don't want to interfere with the ministries you've got going here. if you want a scholarly debate with me, submit a paper to sbl or asor. publish an article. write a book. i'll respond. my interest here was only observation and tracking and the occasional 'get them to talk' posts. thanx for playing along. ;-) carry on gentlealiases. return to your business.... (i'm still chuckling. really? 'i'll carve you up'? really? 'christian bullying'? lol.) shalom - bc

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