Aegeri

If it helps anyone here feel better, after reading all tweleve pages of this thread I've come to the conclusion that Tyre is a failed prophecy (having originally no opinion from the outset) and that Lee Merrill is a terrible debater.

Congradulations Sauron, your eye sees all indeed.

Hey, us theists need to lie for Jesus in other areas than just science!!! :rolling:

I'm always slightly disappointed by the lack of logical thought certain theists seem to use in defending their beliefs. You'll never convince an atheist or someone who doesn't accept your position before hand as being true if you can't even use basic rules of an argument or logic.

lee_merrill

Hi once again, everyone,

We must then conclude that Tyre was never ever a bare rock, it would seem, based on these photos. That would be an odd conclusion, though.

Sauron's eye does not see all, here! There is another reference on page 276, to Philip Myers (a secular historian), saying "The larger part of the site of the once great city is now bare as the top of a rock."

Yes, I agree...

Regards,
Lee

Julian

Hmmm, I went to my local beer store last Sunday. This store is run by several very nice Lebanese guys. Here is a short part of a conversation I had with him:

Beer guy: "I just got back from vacation."
Me: "Really? Did you go to Tyre?"
Beer guy: "Oh yeah, sure did!"
Me: "How was it?"
Beer guy: "It was great, just great. Nice place, nice people."

Beer guy - 1
Bible - 0

Cheers to Sauron for incredible stamina and for providing much good and useful information.

Lee? Would it kill you to admit that you're wrong? I mean, I am sure that we would all respect you a lot more if you did...

Julian

lee_merrill

That's actually consistent with my view now.

I did, actually, and changed my view, during this thread. It seems I survived the operation...

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard

But how do you regard the failure of this biblical prophecy? Does it mean that you no longer believe in the inerrancy of the bible?

Sauron

Already addressed, lee. There is zero evidence that Tyre was ever a bare rock. So trying to claim it happened is just wishful thinking. Go back through the thread - because you missed it the first 117 times, apparently.

Oh, yes - I know. You tried to wiggle and squirm out of this one by postulating an "ephemeral" period of vacancy, that lasted a few short years as a way to fulfill this prophecy on a technicality. As I said before: who would have thought that the God of the Old Testament was such a scam artist? Such a big Johnny Cochran in the Sky, trying to skate through on a technicality?

No matter. The prophecy does not allow for a temporary condition that lasts only a few years. Nor does it allow for a silent, unnoticed event. No, this was painted as a permanent condition - and one that would be noticed widely by the local inhabitants:

EZE 26:14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

EZE 26:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?

EZE 26:16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.

EZE 26:17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

EZE 26:18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

The text is clear: when Tyre was (supposedly) going to fall and become like the "top of a rock", the WHOLE WORLD would know about it and wail in anguish. Thus no room for an "ephemeral" event that escaped public notice.

As I said several times in this thread: if Tyre had *ever* vanished / sank / been destroyed / whatever, it would have had the equivalent impact of Manhattan Island being destroyed. Tyre was THE center of commerce in the eastern Mediterranean. Its absence would have sent shock waves as far as Spain and Persia. But it simply didn't happen.

Side note - it must really suck to realize that the nonbelievers know the bible on this topic an order of magnitude better than you do.

The "book" in question is called "A General History for Colleges and High Schools", dated 1889.

1. Philip Myers was writing over a century ago, during an era where both archaeology and history were heavily flavored and nuanced by a desire to prove the Bible. See Amihai Mazar's commentary.

2. Philip Myers was wrong then, as now. The period plates (drawings, etchings) from Jidejian demonstrate that the city was not bare, contrary to his claim.

3. Partial fulfillments do not count anyhow. Ezekiel says nothing about a partial fulfillment of this condition of being a "bare rock".

4. McDowell's research assistants - I say "assistants", because McDowell did not write the book; he farmed it out to "assistants" -- anyhow, his assistants are known for "splicing" his quotations, inserting or leaving out non-original text to make them say things that the authors actually do not say anyhow. The extreme unlikelihood of *ever* finding this book makes it very hard to verify that McDowell's research assistants copied the text correctly.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well, I don't claim it escaped public notice...

I did change my interpretation, yet I still believe the prophecy was fulfilled. Thus I do (still) believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, I just don't believe in the inerrancy of Lee!

A word to you, my friend Mr. Sauron: "Go and do thou likewise."

You are actually not infallible, like the pope! May we say that you have also made some misstatements, some errors in this thread? It would do you good to admit that, to yourself at least.

But I stopped once, and now stop again.

Blessings,
Lee

John A. Broussard

Thanks. You've answered my question.

No amount of proof change your mind about the inerrancy of the bible. But since you aren't "inerrant" how can you believe in anything you think the bible says?

Let's go back to Joshua making the sun stand still. What now is your interpretation of this true statement?

Sauron

Yes, you did. At least twice, in fact:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...84#post2395284

They wouldn't have missed such an earthquake! But they might not have thought to check on a bare rock that used to be the island of Tyre, afterwards.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...ce#post2390341

Sorry, maybe I didn't make it clear where my response was in my rather long post: "Alex didn't have to be the one to make it a bare rock, though, and in a one or two-paragraph summary, you won't get a complete set of details, and if Tyre became a bare rock, then a rock plateau sinking would not be noticed very readily by the neighbors, and thus not noticed by the historians, if it took an extended time."

Any more dishonest backpedaling that I can expose for you, lee?

Sven

Using Lee's methods of "interpretation", one would easily come to the conclusion that "The Lord of the Rings" is real history and an inerrant book.