Clouseau

That does not mean that there was a permanent rift. We see elsewhere that both James and Peter took the attitude of the rest of the church.

Newton's Cat

PAULOS KLHTOS APOSTOLOS AFWRISMENOS EIS EUAGGELION QEOU
O PROEPHGGEILATO DIA TWN PROFHTWN AUTOU EN GRAFAIS AGIAIS
PASIN TOIS OUSIN EN RWMH AGAPHTOIS QEOU KLHTOIS AGIOIS XARIS UMIN KAI EIRHNH APO QEOU PATROS HMWN
PRWTON MEN EUXARISTW TW QEW MOU PERI PANTWN UMWN OTI H PISTIS UMWN KATAGGELLETAI EN OLW TW KOSMW

MARTUS GAR MOU ESTIN O QEOS W LATREUW EN TW PNEUMATI MOU WS ADIALEIPTWS MNEIAN UMWN POIOUMAI
PANTOTE EPI TWN PROSEUXWN MOU DEOMENOS EI PWS HDH POTE EUODWQHSOMAI EN TW QELHMATI TOU QEOU ELQEIN PROS UMAS
TOUTO DE ESTIN SUMPARAKLHQHNAI EN UMIN DIA THS EN ALLHLOIS PISTEWS UMWN TE KAI EMOU

OU QELW DE UMAS AGNOEIN ADELFOI OTI POLLAKIS PROEQEMHN ELQEIN PROS UMAS KAI EKWLUQHN AXRI TOU DEURO INA TINA KARPON SXW KAI EN UMIN KAQWS KAI EN TOIS LOIPOIS EQNESIN
ELLHSIN TE KAI BARBAROIS SOFOIS TE KAI ANOHTOIS OFEILETHS EIMI
OUTWS TO KAT EME PROQUMON KAI UMIN TOIS EN RWMH EUAGGELISASQAI

EPIPOQW GAR IDEIN UMAS INA TI METADW XARISMA UMIN PNEUMATIKON EIS TO STHRIXQHNAI UMAS
OU GAR EPAISXUNOMAI TO EUAGGELION DUNAMIS GAR QEOU ESTIN EIS SWTHRIAN PANTI TW PISTEUONTI IOUDAIW TE PRWTON KAI ELLHNI
DIKAIOSUNH GAR QEOU EN AUTW APOKALUPTETAI EK PISTEWS EIS PISTIN KAQWS GEGRAPTAI O DE DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS ZHSETAI

There are 1000 characters and 204 words in the above. Verse 11 has been moved to follow verse 15 thereby neatly dividing the text into 4 sections of 51 words. (Some scholars have puzzled over the context of verse 11 ... moving it to follow verse 15 makes more sense to me ... what say you?)

What's HDH highlighted for?

Well, are you any good at statistics?

In each instance of the use of the word 'God' its first letter, or the first letter of its definite article when it has one, is an EVEN number of letters from the beginning of the text.

Is this a chance occurrence?

It took me several years to discover that the author DELIBERATELY arranged things this way. The clue is that in 7 out of the 8 instances the word 'God', or its definite article is an ODD number of WORDS from the beginning of the text. The "odd one out" is 0 QEOS ... the only instance of the use of the nominative. I took this to suggest that the author was, maybe, "secretly" identifying his "concept of God".

If the positions of the first letters are added together and divided by 8 one gets the first letter of the word HDH

The statistical odds against this happening by chance are:

Chances against all 8 having their first letters an even number of letters from the beginning = 256-1

Chances against the total dividing by 8 = 4-1

The average number of letters in a word is 5 so the chances against the first letter of a word being identified when the total is divided by 8 is 5-1

Thus 256 x 4 x 5 = 5120-1 against the above arrangement not being a deliberate product of a human mind.

What the chances against the word identified being a "definition of God" are I don't know.

Headbanging stuff, eh?

Its seems the author was some kind of mystic philosopher ... and a VERY smart guy!

Newton's Cat

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

The image of a huge multitude of people flocking out to John to be baptised was not supposed to be understood by the reader (the audience - I think this originated as a play) to be a description of an actual event. The voice that spoke to Jesus after he was baptised was supposed to be understood as that of his DECEASED FATHER - not "the voice of God". Further on the text has been altered to disguise the fact that Jesus was MARRIED.

As with Romans 1,1-17 the text of Mark was written in 51 word sections.

Jesus, in this "original" was plain Jesus, King of the Jews - later someone altered the text and turned him into Jesus Christ, Son of God.

spamandham

It isn't the shortness, but rather a reduction in segregated clauses overall. I don't see this as anything more than a curiosity in English.

If on the other hand, it can be shown to flow more smoothly without all the clauses referring to Jesus - if they can be shown to be linguisticaly out of place in regard to Paul's overall writing style, then there begins to be an argument that they were a later addition.

Newton's Cat

35 And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.

36 And Simon and they that were with him followed after him.

37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

38 And he said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.

39 And he preached in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and cast out devils.

40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.

43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;

44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into the city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

Again - this is a 51 word section. There are lots of them throughout Mark.

Newton's Cat

If any of you think that I'm "onto something" - and dream of "sorting it all out", I warn you - in 30 years time you'll still probably be "worrying away" at the text.

I am.

Newton's Cat

The difference between me and most other people who are "into" Christianity is that I came from a totally non-religious family. Until my late 20s I had never read the Bible. One day, as a consequence of associating with a Christian woman who I perceived as being "disturbed" by its influence, I sat down and read the New Testament ... from beginning to end in one sitting!

The Gospels of Matthew, Luke, and John, were, to my perception, pretty much as they were written by their authors. Mark, on the other hand, seemed to me to have been heavily "doctored". When I came to Romans I "saw" that the "Jesus" bits had clearly been interpolated into the text by someone other than the original author. This "leapt out of the page at me".

Verse 18 is CLEARLY not a continuation from verse 17 ... indeed it seems to start in "mid-thought".

I think that ALL references to Jesus and Christianity in Romans are later interpolations and additions ....

When I put the Bible down I was left with the impressions that there were TWO primary minds involved in the origins of Christianity ... two VERY different minds. One an altruistic "philosopher" type, the other a cunning, scheming founder of a cult ... much like many of the modern Fundie leaders!

Clouseau

[QUOTE=spamandham;4524989] There's nothing at all curious about a compound sentence- and if curiosity was found only in translation, it would hardly be apposite to Paul.

Now count the clauses in that sentence. Paul's opening sentence is less complex than yours. Moreover, his has rhythm, it even has rhyme. It sounds good, and must have sounded good and even memorable to the Romans who heard it read out.

In any case, this sort of self-description in short phrases was just what was needed to begin a letter of this type. See how others begin:

'James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.' James 1:1 NIV

'Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.' 2 Peter 1:1 NIV

'Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James.' Jude 1 NIV

So are those mentions of Christ later insertions, too?

True, Paul was more likely to write longer introductions, but there's no harm in that.

'Paul, an apostle — sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers with me.' Gal 1:1-2 NIV

To insert Christ-related matter into that would mean writing most of the sentence.

And 'apostle' means messenger. Who's messenger?

But this is not a sustainable argument to any who know Paul's writing, which is actually about Jesus Christ, most of the time, and records Paul's complete personal devotion to Christ, several times. Paul related the OT to Christ, he explained human relationships in terms of Christ, and almost abased himself.

To snip passages of Paul which deal with Christ from his oeuvre would be to leave it very slim indeed. Paul has given the foundation of Christology to theologians; billions of words that would fill a large library have been written analysing and systematising his teaching on Christ.

Toto

Some off topic posts were split off here

spamandham

I wasn't referring to compound sentences in general. I was referring to the overall meter of the specific English translation in question. You say it's more poetic in Greek, and I certainly am not qualified to dispute that.