Toto

Rostovtzeff is the author of Excavations at Dura Europos (compiled from 1928-1938), Dura and Problems of Parthian Art (1935), and Dura-Europos and Its Art (1938)

Dura-Europas

post tenebras lux

I thought I remembered reading that the dig was actually funded by The School of Divinity at Yale. Is this incorrect or is Yale's archeological department controlled by theologians?

Who, at Yale, has control over the artifacts retrieved during the dig as well as the diggers original notes and sketches?

mountainman

From here, quoting Momigliano:

But the most important discussion on the topic of social changes in the Roman empire remains that which developed in the last forty years between the followers of the Belgian scholar H. Pirenne and the followers of the Austrian A. Dopsch. [1] As we all know, Dopsch substantially claimed that no break in continuity is noticeable in the Western world as a consequence of the German invasions. There was considerable redistribution of land, but the legal forms of ownership remained essentially Roman, city life survived, there was no return to natural economy, no interruption of the great trade-routes, and no interruption on the transmission of cultural goods.

Pirenne accepted Dopsch's view that the German invasion did not put an end to the Graeco-Roman social structure, but contended that the ancient ways of life were disrupted by the Arabs: they played the part that more conventional historans used to attribute to the Germans. In Pirenne's opinion the Arabs destroyed the unity of Mediterranean, paralysed the trade between East and West, drained the gold away from the West, and displaced the centre of civilized life from the Mediterranean to the North Sea. The West, having been cut off from Byzantium, had to look after itself. The coronation of Charlemagne was symbolically the answer given by the West to the challenge of Mohammed's followers. Thence the somewhat unexpected title of Pirenne's great book, Mohammed et Charlemagne.

It is perhaps right to say that Rostovtzeff was in essential agreement with Pirennce against Dopsch. Of course, he found the cause of the decline of the cities not in the intervention of Arabs, but in the revolution of the peasantry against the city-dwellers. But Rostovtzeff, like Pirenne, was a bourgeois in the classical sense: he identified civilization with city life and saw the end of the classical world in the decline of the cities.

Now it is clear that all this recent research is unified by a common interest in the structural changes of the social organization of the Roman empire. It is also undeniable that researchers are less and less prepared to maintain that a simple formula can cover the enormous variety of local situations within the Roman empire. We are learning to respect regional differences as much as chronological sequences. We begin to see that what is true of France in the fourth century is not necessarily true of Spain, Africa, or Italy, not to speak of Syria or Egypt.

But even regional studies cannot overcome what seems to me the most serious objection against both Pirenne and Dopsch, and, indeed, against Rostovtzeff. The objection is that these historians talked of social changes without even discussing the most important of all social changes - The rise of Christianity.

More generally, it can be said that no interpretation of the decline of the Roman empire can be declared satisfactory it it does not also account for the triumph of Christianity.

Momigliano appears to be placing boundaries upon the import
of material from Rostovtzeff, setting aside whatever he has
written in his School of Divinity of Yale sponsored paper.

Anyway, this thread is about trying to get hold of a reliable
pre-nicene dating with respect to christianity, perhaps from
a gravestone, or tomb, or sarcophagus. And thanks once
again to an earlier poster who provided these book refs:

** Elsa Gibson's "The 'Christians for Christians' Inscriptions of Phrygia. Greek Texts, Translation and Commentary" (1978) discusses third century Christian funerary texts. p.4 "The 'Christians for Christians' formula is pre-Constantinian. One inscription is dated to 248/9 A.D. . . . ."

** Graydon Snyder's "Ante Pacem: Archaeological Evidence of Church Life Before Constantine" (1985)

However, I have not been able to obtain either, since the date
of the post. But I note that this in theory is the whole purpose
of an internet forum.

I find that it is reasonable to expect, irrespective of whatever
theory of history and/or traditional faith that one holds, that
if there in fact does exist one or more citations to the existence
of "christianity" in the pre-nicene epoch outside the literary
tradition, then we should be able to look at them.

So far on this forum, despite big names and bigger credentials
no such citation has been forthcoming.

If someone has one of the above books, or other sources, which
document the inferred existence of "christianity" in the pre-nicene,
whether by coin, or inscription, or art, or archeological relic, or by
architectural relief, or by carbon dating citation (but not via the
assessment of paleography), or indeed any other form of
archeological and/or scientific citation ---- please type its name,
its location, its date, so that interested parties can independently
attest that - yes - here is indeed proof of the existence of something
"christian" prior to the fourth century [outside the "holy" literary trad].

If no such evidence (outside the "holy literary tradition") is indeed
forthcoming then there are two possibilities:

1) O dear, we have no evidence for our conjectures, or

2) "Christianity" was in fact (politically) invented in the
fourth century, during a regime of absolute military power,
and malevolent dictatorship, in which the key academic
literature at the time of the publication of christian literature,
was edicted for destruction.

Thanks for any objectivity displayed on this critical question
and assessment of scientific and/or archeological evidence.

Steven Avery

Hi Post,

Interesting question. Are you concerned that there might be an anti-Christian bias in representing and interpreting the dig ? As per God and Man at Yale by William F. Buckley Jr. That Yale "addresses itself to the task of persuading [students] to be atheistic socialists" and therefore might suppress or skew information that supports the Bible ?

As one poster mentioned about the emphasis in the Divinity schools.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1756365/posts
"Those in want or need of postmodernist, deconstructionist, revisionist, eisegetical bibling would do well to go there."

Shalom,
Steven

post tenebras lux

Hi praxeus. Or that there could be a pro christian bias.

Who controls access to the artifacts retrieved during the dig as well as the diggers original notes and sketches?

Just, they don't seem to have been shared with other archeology departments, but only leaked out to 'the faithful'.

spin

I'd look a lot deeper before fearing the christian conspiracy with Rostovtseff. This Yale Divinity so must be suspect attitude is like christians suspecting everything the infidel says. If you have problems with the scholar -- and there is no doubt in the world that Rostovtseff was a scholar of high repute --, then express them. Don't just attempt to discredit his work through his associations.


spin

figuer

The following was written by Roman historian Tacitus (c. 56 – c. 117):

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
------

I suppose someone will say that "Imperial Thug" Constantine ordered Tacitus' book edited to include refferences to Christianity.

spin

Eusebius knows nothing about it, does he?


spin

Steven Avery

And that just provides more evidence of the wide nature of the hooligan conspiracy. Constantine had Eusebius omit that edited reference to smoke the trail of his other fabrications.

spin

Actually, no it doesn't.


spin