Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chaupoline · 01-29-2007, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

While I might concur to some degree some of your linguistic notions, your retrojection of them into a literature that shows no knowledge of those notions seems to be a gratuitous act on your part, one of complete irrelevance.

I don't see how this isn't related. Just as the story of Adam and Eve and the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil speaks of the transition of humankind into the form that we associate with Homo Erectus, I feel that the Story of the Tower of Babel and the confusion of language makes sense and is a good fable regarding how humankind has evolved into its present form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Your escape into inherent diversity just misses the point of the statement and justifies it at the same time.

I didn't miss the point of the statement. I used the statement to make my point. One Language-One Speech is not something that is translated into every day life, because it is a foreign concept to the way things are today.

spin · 01-30-2007, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaupoline

I don't see how this isn't related. Just as the story of Adam and Eve and the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil speaks of the transition of humankind into the form that we associate with Homo Erectus, I feel that the Story of the Tower of Babel and the confusion of language makes sense and is a good fable regarding how humankind has evolved into its present form.

If it didn't make sense, at least for the original audience, there would not have been any point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaupoline

I didn't miss the point of the statement. I used the statement to make my point.

You communicated and stopped communicating at the same moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaupoline

One Language-One Speech is not something that is translated into every day life, because it is a foreign concept to the way things are today.

People in less cosmopolitan situations usually live one language one speech in there every day life. That makes it anything but foreign. I think you're not telling it as you think it.

spin

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-30-2007, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xoxarle

Isn't it also true that Babel, literally translated, means "confused"? That alone suggests the story was apocryphal.

I was told that it came from Bab-El... "Bab" meaning "Gate" and "El" meaning "God." So you have "Gate of God."

OneInFundieville · 01-30-2007, 06:30 AM

So what do you guys think of the theories of Proto-World?

Do you think these 27 words were spoken at Babel?

dzim77 · 01-30-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butswana

"All right, not a whole lot to go on there, but that's the whole tale. Why exactly did God want to fuck up those nice peoples building project?
Why would it be such a bad thing that "nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do"? And why would building a tower to heaven enable them to do any thing they imagined?
Was the intent to reach Heaven, or were they just wanting a high perch to drop water balloons from?
Was God worried that they would actually be pounding on the gates of Heaven if they were allowed to continue?
In Hebrew or Babalonian Cosmology, how high up was the surface of this firmament bowl thing suppossed to be? 1,000 feet? 5,000 cubits?
Who is the 'us' in verse 7? Other gods? Angels?
So after God and his posse come down and fuck every thing up the people just wander off in thousands of directions? They don't try to communicate?
This story is totally fucked.

God's original purpose for humanity is declared in Gen 1, shortly after the creation of man and woman.

Quote:

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.
-Genesis 1:28

This blessing is repeated after Noah leaves the ark and begins anew, making it clear that God's intentions have not changed since Gen. 1

Quote:

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.
-Genesis 9:1

In the tower of Babel account, we see that the people are in direct opposition to God's intention for women and men to fill the earth and subdue it... seemingly as a result of their hubris, their desire to 'make a name for themselves'

Quote:

Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
-Genesis 11:4

God intervenes by confusing their language so that they will scatter and fulfill their original purpose in covering the earth.

So we can see from the text that diverse languages are not necessarily a 'bad thing' or a 'curse' but were given by God as a means of accomplishing his plan.

spin · 01-30-2007, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzim77

God's original purpose for humanity is declared in Gen 1, shortly after the creation of man and woman.

When you say "original purpose", in what way original? Does your statement imply that that purpose has changed?

In what way is the instruction "go forth and mulitply (etc)" a purpose?

spin

dzim77 · 01-30-2007, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

When you say "original purpose", in what way original? Does your statement imply that that purpose has changed?

By original, I mean his intention from the very beginning, from the creation of man and woman. (Gen 1) There is no indication of a change in intention.

Quote:

In what way is the instruction "go forth and mulitply (etc)" a purpose?

spin

God's instructions indicate that men and women were created for the purpose of filling the earth and subduing it as bearers of God's image.

spin · 01-30-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzim77

By original, I mean his intention from the very beginning, from the creation of man and woman. (Gen 1) There is no indication of a change in intention.

OK, so the use of the adjective was gratuitous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzim77

God's instructions indicate that men and women were created for the purpose of filling the earth and subduing it as bearers of God's image.

Instructions don't indicate purpose. One doesn't know from the bible account what the purpose for humans was in fulfilling the instruction to fill the world. If it were just the vegetable physical job of filling the earth, one sees no purpose there was for humans to do so: other creations were just as capable of doing so. So what really was the purpose? God being omnipresent needed no bearers of his image. God needed no-one to subdue the world. He apparently created it the way he wanted it. No subduing was necessary. So, purpose?

spin

dzim77 · 01-30-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

OK, so the use of the adjective was gratuitous.

Instructions don't indicate purpose. One doesn't know from the bible account what the purpose for humans was in fulfilling the instruction to fill the world. If it were just the vegetable physical job of filling the earth, one sees no purpose there was for humans to do so: other creations were just as capable of doing so. So what really was the purpose? God being omnipresent needed no bearers of his image. God needed no-one to subdue the world. He apparently created it the way he wanted it. No subduing was necessary. So, purpose?

spin

You assume that since God didn't *need* man to bear his image or to have dominion over the earth, that these could not be legitamate purposes for man. This does not necessarily follow. God did not "need" man, yet he chose to create him and assign him the purpose of bearing his image and having dominion over creation. (Does this not qualify as a legitamate purpose? Is 'purpose' the wrong term?)

Notice that, according to Revelation, this same purpose (?) for man will be fulfilled... bearing God's image (his name on their forehead), and reigning over the earth.

Quote:

On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
-Revelation 22:2-5

pharoah · 01-30-2007, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzim77

God's original purpose for humanity is declared in Gen 1, shortly after the creation of man and woman.

Quote:

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.
-Genesis 1:28

This blessing is repeated after Noah leaves the ark and begins anew, making it clear that God's intentions have not changed since Gen. 1

Quote:

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.
-Genesis 9:1

In the tower of Babel account, we see that the people are in direct opposition to God's intention for women and men to fill the earth and subdue it... seemingly as a result of their hubris, their desire to 'make a name for themselves'

God intervenes by confusing their language so that they will scatter and fulfill their original purpose in covering the earth.

So we can see from the text that diverse languages are not necessarily a 'bad thing' or a 'curse' but were given by God as a means of accomplishing his plan.

First of all, there is no mention of subduing the earth in the 2nd Genesis quote. You read that into it. Secondly, Genesis 11:6 clearly states what God's reason was:

Quote:

And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Why isn't the stated reason good enough for you?

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01-30-2007, 06:30 AM	#54
OneInFundieville Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Where I go Posts: 2,168	So what do you guys think of the theories of Proto-World? Do you think these 27 words were spoken at Babel?

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