Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ksen · 08-09-2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rigel

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

You entirely misread what I wrote.

I wasn't saying I had superior knowledge. I said the evidence I do have is sufficient for me. That's it.

In that case, my apologies.

No problem.

ksen · 08-09-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rigel

ksen- Out of curiosity, what evidence is sufficient for you?

EDIT- crossed posts

Hmmm, what I do have is entirely subjective and I don't expect anyone else to believe because of it.

I'll tell you how I became a Christian and you can take or leave whatever you want from it. I'm sure I'm opening myself up for ridicule and mocking here but that's ok.

*ahem*
=====================
As far as I remember I've always thought that God exists. As Selsaral mentioned above it is probably due to being raised in a nominally "christian" nation and that is what I was exposed to mostly even though my parents and grandparents weren't particularly interested in religion.

As a child whenever my great-grandmother came to town I was the one that walked her to church on Sundays and sat and listened to the sermons with her. I would read her bible whenever she visited and ask her questions. That is the extent of my contact with christianity outside of the normal Vacation Bible School activities one week out of each summer (I suspect my parents sent us there so they'd have a bit of free time).

Fast-forward quite a few years to where I'm 23 years old. I'm married now and we've had our daughter. I suggested going to church and my wife agreed. We went to the local Baptist church. I don't remember what the sermon was but I remember talking to the associate pastor after the sermon. He took me through some verses in the New Testament, mostly from the gospel of John and the book of Romans.

He asked me what my view of God was and I told him. He challenged my view based on the verses he shared with me. I didn't have an answer. Inside it just clicked that this Christ guy is God and I need to accept him as my savior.

I see evidence of God in the beauty of the universe and the world. I see evidence of God in my wife's smile and my children's laughter.

Like I said, what I have is entirely subjective and I'm sure can be explained away. But I have what I have and I totally understand that other people confronted with the same things I have been can be led to entirely different conclusions.

Is what I have mostly feeling? I suppose so.

Did I spend years vigorously poring over the Bible and comparing it with the other holy writings of other religions before making my decision? No.

Did I subject the Bible to rigorous textual criticism to see if I should believe anything it has to say? No.

I believe that God's Spirit spoke to my spirit and brought me to the place where I really had no choice BUT believe.

Anyway, that's my rambling story. I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have or whatever (tomorrow because I'm getting ready to leave for awhile).

Mikael · 08-09-2007, 02:35 PM

Quote:

I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have or whatever

I got some questions. but first I must apologize, for I'm not native english speaker, but here I come..

Quote:

He asked me what my view of God was and I told him. He challenged my view based on the verses he shared with me. I didn't have an answer. Inside it just clicked that this Christ guy is God and I need to accept him as my savior

This has always bothered me to be honest with you.
I belive a person should be judged by his past actions and his actions right now.
Lets go right back to the start, where it all started.
Adam and Eve.
not ONLY did God managed to make humans who were naive like little children, who didnt know when they were being lied and when not, He also :
1.Allowed Devil to enter the garden. thats like allowing paedophile to play with your small children. thats baad parenting.
2.He placed a Tree of knowledgement.. Right next to those naive child like Eve and Adam. Thats just silly and not very smart.
3.Even tho God is all mighty, all wise and all knowing, he managed to let Devil in to the garden, lie to the stupid child like Eve, which lead Eve to easly just pick a an APPLE , take a bit of it, give it to Adam.. all this which could have been avoided.. I dont know.. maybe not place the tree in the garden?
Now my question is.. Why do you "worship" a God, Who made stupid mistakes like that? and who knows what other mistakes He made, because in the end, Bible is kind of biased..
And isnt this same as someone saying "NO no No He didnt Murder no one.. Just read this letter, which he wrote. it clearly states "Im nice and I dont kill", so it must be true !"?

Quote:

I see evidence of God in the beauty of the universe and the world. I see evidence of God in my wife's smile and my children's laughter.

If all good things are Evidence for God, does that mean all ugly and bad things are evidence AGAINST God? What about Cancer, AIDS, what about [Insert Random Very Very Nasty disease]

Quote:

believe that God's Spirit spoke to my spirit and brought me to the place where I really had no choice BUT believe.

Why you ? If He can convert you, Why is he un able to convert everyone ? He is the all powerful, I am just a human.

fishbulb · 08-09-2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I would be willing to become a Christian if certain kinds of evidence of my choice became available. Would fundamentalist Christians be willing to give up Christianity based upon any kind of evidence?

You mean if there were evidence that the stories in the Bible are contradicted by historical evidence, that accounts within the Bible are internally inconsistent, that claims made in the Bible are inconsistent with the laws of physics and known facts about the natural world, that the stories in the Bible have all the hallmarks of myth and folklore and of having been written and later revised or altered well after the alleged fact, or that the events the Bible alleges to have occurred are far more consistent with the misconceptions of the world held by 1st Century Mediterranean people than with the world as it actually exists? Because that evidence already exists in spades.

Christianity has been thoroughly debunked by any reasonable standard of evidence. If you're asking whether Christians remain believers because they simply are unaware of this evidence, the answer is probably: some, but not many. I "gave up" Christianity ("ceased to believe" would be a more accurate description) a long time ago because I became aware of the tremendous evidence disproving what I had been taught to believe, but I suppose I was a skeptic at heart from early on, and never a true believer. A true believer would probably not be moved, and many are already aware of the evidence against their faith. To a true believer, contrary evidence is just proof that you need to believe even harder; the bigger the cloud, the greater the motivation to look for the silver lining.

Tigers! · 08-09-2007, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I may be absent for an extended period of time. I am interested in writing a book or a screenplay.

What's the topic of them?

samurai · 08-09-2007, 08:05 PM

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;4688463]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaMan121

Even if the ancient evidence was twice as good as it is now, that would not be good enough for me. Ancient evidence is much too subject to tampering and innocent but inaccurate revelations. I would require the following evidence:

1 - A personal appearance by a being claiming to be the God of the Bible.

You are asking something that is too dangerous for you!

Well, here is why.
In your first question, Satan can deceitfully claim that he is the God of the Bible. Of course, you don't know how to recognize him. So you lose! You had given your soul to Satan!

Second, a magician, for example can claim that he is God. He will show you his magic, and you will believe. And you lose again.

Third, Any leader of religious group can claim about it. Have you ever heard in the Philippines about Apollo Quibuloy who is claiming to be the Son of God??? So you lose again.

Poor Johnny, you sold your soul to Satan!

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;4688463]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaMan121

2 - A demonstration of power. Speaking a new galaxy into existence would be acceptable.

Let us assume that Satan had appeared to you claiming to be the God of the Bible. He can surely create a new galaxy. He has the power actually. But you will have only 100 years on earth, you will never see the process of galaxy's creation! It may take more than hundred years for you to realize that the galaxy in question is really forming! And another hundred years foy you to be convinced that the galaxy had been created! And besides, you don't have that super Hubble-like telescope! Can you borrow the telescope from NASA? So, you lose again!

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;4688463]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaMan121

3 - Sufficient answers to some questions.

Since you don't know which is correct and which is wrong, then, you will never know the correct answers that you are looking for! So you lose again!

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;4688463]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaMan121

4 - Evidence that heaven and hell exist.

So you need a tour to those places. Heaven is place of God. So you need to die first, transform your body into spiritual body and tour Heaven. But since the limit of deciding one's destiny is up until you die, then, God cannot change your destiny now! You will be surely going to Hell! So if you could see Heaven and you cannot live there, then, you are only adding agony and pain to yourself in Hell!

Well, it is the same in touring Hell. There are temporary torment place and permanent Hell. So if God would like to tour you to permanentn Hell, then, you need to die first, wait for Satan and his demons to be judged, and go to Hell. But on time you will never be back on earth! You will stay in Hell forever!

So you lose again.

Poor Johnny, you made a series of questions that only destroy yourself.

Chili · 08-09-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I would be willing to become a Christian if certain kinds of evidence of my choice became available. Would fundamentalist Christians be willing to give up Christianity based upon any kind of evidence?

.

Hey Johnny, how can you decide to become a Christian is one must be called and chosen?

earljail · 08-09-2007, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

For him God hasn't provided enough evidence for Johnny to reliably change his mind. How can I find fault with Johnny going through a process we all go through?

Come on, you aren't seriously claiming that most Christians are christians because their minds have been changed by god providing some evidence?

Most christians are born into it. Sure, some do convert as adults. Those adult converts might have been satisfied with some poor evidence, but the "child converts" have just been taught to believe by their families.

IonMic · 08-10-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaMan121

What kind of evidence? If there was a bunch of documentation that some dude named Jesus was executed by the orders of Pilate, a bunch of historians recording an eclipse and earthquake around the same time, and the subsequent Day of the Dead scenario in Jerusalem - you would believe Jesus was/is God, the one and only creator of the entire universe?

Even if the ancient evidence was twice as good as it is now, that would not be good enough for me. Ancient evidence is much too subject to tampering and innocent but inaccurate revelations. I would require the following evidence:

1 - A personal appearance by a being claiming to be the God of the Bible.

2 - A demonstration of power. Speaking a new galaxy into existence would be acceptable.

3 - Sufficient answers to some questions.

4 - Evidence that heaven and hell exist.

In my opinion, under those conditions, even though I could not be sure of the supposed God's identity, Pascal's Wager would be a good bet to accept. At present, Pascal's Wager is not a good bet to accept. How is the Bible any more convincing than my hypothetical scenario?

My Question to you Johnny is why should God do this for you? what makes you so special? and then in 30 years time when there are people that werent even alive when God visited decide we are all senile and it never happened cos all we have to prove it is a few grainy photos a few books and this galaxy that could have been created any old how decide not to believe in God, what then?

God has to turn up and make sure everyone sees him every year or two?

ksen · 08-10-2007, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Quote:

I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have or whatever

I got some questions. but first I must apologize, for I'm not native english speaker, but here I come..

No need to apologize. From what I read your written english skills are pretty darn good.

Quote:

This has always bothered me to be honest with you.
I belive a person should be judged by his past actions and his actions right now.

Ok.

Quote:

Lets go right back to the start, where it all started.
Adam and Eve.
not ONLY did God managed to make humans who were naive like little children, who didnt know when they were being lied and when not, He also :
1.Allowed Devil to enter the garden. thats like allowing paedophile to play with your small children. thats baad parenting.
2.He placed a Tree of knowledgement.. Right next to those naive child like Eve and Adam. Thats just silly and not very smart.
3.Even tho God is all mighty, all wise and all knowing, he managed to let Devil in to the garden, lie to the stupid child like Eve, which lead Eve to easly just pick a an APPLE , take a bit of it, give it to Adam.. all this which could have been avoided.. I dont know.. maybe not place the tree in the garden?

1) Why do you assume Adam and Eve were as naive as little children? I don't read that in the text.

2) Tradition has it that the fruit was an apple. The bible doesn't say what kind of fruit the tree had.

3) Yes, God did let the devil to enter the garden. Why? I can only speculate that it was because God wanted to test Adam and Eve. Did God test them because he didn't know what they would do? I don't believe so. I think God wanted to show Adam and Eve that they needed to be reliant on God so he let them make a decision when they thought he wasn't around.

Here is what John Calvin had to say in his commentary on Genesis 3:1

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Calvin

All, however, who think piously and reverently concerning the power of God, acknowledge that the evil did not take place except by his permission. For, in the first place, it must be conceded, that God was not in ignorance of the event which was about to occur; and then, that he could have prevented it, had he seen fit to do so. But in speaking of permission, I understand that he had appointed whatever he wished to be done. Here, indeed, a difference arises on the part of many, who suppose Adam to have been so left to his own free will, that God would not have him fall. They take for granted, what I allow them, that nothing is less probable than that God should he regarded as the cause of sin, which he has avenged with so many and such severe penalties. When I say, however, that Adam did not fall without the ordination and will of God, I do not so take it as if sin had ever been pleasing to Him, or as if he simply wished that the precept which he had given should be violated. So far as the fall of Adam was the subversion of equity, and of well-constituted order, so far as it was contumacy against the Divine Law-giver, and the transgression of righteousness, certainly it was against the will of God; yet none of these things render it impossible that, for a certain cause, although to us unknown, he might will the fall of man. It offends the ears of some, when it is said God willed this fall; but what else, I pray, is the permission of Him, who has the power of preventing, and in whose hand the whole matter is placed, but his will? I wish that men would rather suffer themselves to be judged by God, than that, with profane temerity, they should pass judgment upon him; but this is the arrogance of the flesh to subject God to its own test. I hold it as a settled axiom, that nothing is more unsuitable to the character of God than for us to say that man was created by Him for the purpose of being placed in a condition of suspense and doubt; wherefore I conclude, that, as it became the Creator, he had before determined with himself what should be man’s future condition. Hence the unskilful rashly infer, that man did not sin by free choice. For he himself perceives, being convicted by the testimony of his own conscience, that he has been too free in sinning. Whether he sinned by necessity, or by contingency, is another question; respecting which see the Institution, (158158 Calvin’s Institutes, Book III c. 1 Vol. 2, p. 73, of the Calvin Society’s edition). and the treatise on Predestination.

Quote:

Now my question is.. Why do you "worship" a God, Who made stupid mistakes like that? and who knows what other mistakes He made, because in the end, Bible is kind of biased..

I reject your claim that God any "stupid mistakes."

Although I do understand that you could intepret the events that way. I don't.

Quote:

And isnt this same as someone saying "NO no No He didnt Murder no one.. Just read this letter, which he wrote. it clearly states "Im nice and I dont kill", so it must be true !"?

Mmm, no, it's not the same as that.

Quote:

If all good things are Evidence for God, does that mean all ugly and bad things are evidence AGAINST God?

No. They are evidence that the world isn't in the state in which it started.

Quote:

What about Cancer, AIDS, what about [Insert Random Very Very Nasty disease]

What about them?

Quote:

believe that God's Spirit spoke to my spirit and brought me to the place where I really had no choice BUT believe.

Why you ?

I don't know. :huh:

Quote:

If He can convert you, Why is he un able to convert everyone ? He is the all powerful, I am just a human.

He is able.

What is stopping you from believing the gospel? Have you been told the gospel? Is there any outside force preventing you from accepting the gospel or are you willingly rejecting it?

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