Toto

Or what?

Crossan has rejected the nonsupernatural elements in the gospels except, presumably, for some sort of spiritual-like resurrection.

He got his stories about Jesus body buried in a shallow grave from historians of the period who have stated that that is what happened to anyone who was crucified. There is no actual documentary evidence of Jesus or what happened to his body.

aa5874

......"Babble babbla babbley Boo".



Did you make an error? I noticed you wrote that "Crossan has rejected the nonsupernatural elements...", do you mean "supernatural elements"?

But, this is exactly the point. Crossan rejected the NT and the Church writings which clearly stated that when the women and possibly Peter went to the supposed burial site the body of Jesus was not found.

The fundamental flaw of HJers is that they ALL assume Jesus did exist and was crucified. They first assume the historicity of Jesus since they CANNOT ESTABLISH that Jesus did exist.

The trial and crucifixion of Jesus as described in the NT and Church writings APPEARS to be "Babble babbla babbley Boo".

1. The people who made accusations against Jesus were FALSE witnesses.

This is a partial list of the Commandments as found in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 5.15-222. Based on Hebrew Scripture, those who are false witnesses are themselves liable to be executed if the false information was given in a capital trial where the death penalty was sought.

Deuteronomy 19.18-19 3.And even Pilate, the final arbiter, found no fault with Jesus.

The trial and crucifixion of Jesus in the NT and Church writings appear to be "Babble babbla babbley Boo".

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition or.....what?

Toto

You are right - I meant to write supernatural. But Crossan has also rejected most of the nonsupernatural elements. He thinks that the passion is about 20% historical. He has stated that it is impossible to prove that Jesus existed, since all of the sources might have been forged or mistaken, but he takes it as a reasonable assumption that there was a historical Jesus behind the stories.

aa5874

The assumption that Jesus existed CANNOT be based on the assumption he existed.

Such an assumption is rather SENSELESS.

The NT and Church writings presented Jesus, with witnesses,, as the offspring of the Holy Ghost, was tempted by the Devil on the pinnacle of the Temple, who walked on water while saving the 1st bishop of Rome from drowning, transfigured with the resurrected Moses and Elijah, was raised from the dead and ascended through the clouds, it CANNOT be assumed that Jesus did exist.

It is blatantly evident that the authors of the NT and Church writings wrote fiction and provided witnesses, even some authors participated in the non-events.

It simply cannot be assumed that anything with respect to Jesus and the disciples is true or likely to be true, when it can be shown that the NT and Church writings are loaded with fiction.

The Jesus story, as it is found, could have been believed or was written to be believed but surely there is no external corroborative sources for a man called Jesus who was crucified after the witnesses were deemed to be false and even though Pilate exonerated him of all accusations.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.....or what?

The Dagda

~I'm with the gnostics on this one, Jesus couldn't die because he was never in human form. He can't be he is perfect, therefore only imperfections can be born and that wasn't the Messiah, just a very naughty boy.

I think the logic is unassailable which is probably why the Catholic church had a tendency to burn Gnostics and the Romans had a tendency to crucify them. Truth is a jagged little pill methinks.

kcdad

... it is the ONLY sensible explanation of a man's life. Duh. he was human.

Crossan's sources are The Gospel of Mark, the other synoptics and extra canonical sources. AND... The reality that physical bodies do not rise into space, so even if Jesus did die and resurrect himself, his body had to go someplace... HIS PHYSICAL BODY. There are no physical bodies in spiritual places. (This is called reason, consistency, and logic) It is drawn from historical accounts and anthropology and archeology of the Palestine region. If bodies were not tossed into Gehenna, entombed in caves or mausoleums, they were buried in the ground. IF someone is trying to bury a body in rocky ground you don't dig a deep grave like you do in prairie or forests, you dig just deep enough to cover the body... if later on you can't find the body it must be because someone stole the body or wild animals dug it up and ate it.

So.. where's Jesus' body?
1) Floating in space?
2) Walking around somewhere?
3) Dust
4) Sitting (on something) at the right hand of God the Father (himself)

kcdad

Why should I presume YOU exist?

Jesus, whoever he was, changed the world. Can you say the same thing about any other person in history? Of course, it was his followers, not Jesus that changed the world... but so what? Did they just invent this Jesus to gain political power, to get laid or become rich? No, they "apparently" invented him so they could be martyred... BRILLIANT! No, they "apparently" invented him so that 2000 years later, people could get on TV and sell snake oil and books and political leaders and get filthy stinkin' rich...

Did John the Baptizer "truly, really" exist? Was he human?

aa5874

All you are doing is to ignore or discard the written information that shows Jesus was described as a myth, even with witnesses, and then invent your own stories of Jesus.

The NT and the Church writings clearly described Jesus as the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God, you simply cannot reject or discard the BIOGRAPHY of Jesus.

No serious historian would even dare discard or reject the BIOGRAPHY of Homer's Achilles.

If you want to know how Jesus was conceived you MUST read Matthew 1.18 or Luke 1.35 or some similar source. You are not allowed to guess how Jesus was conceived.

If you want to find out about the conception of Achilles, you MUST read the Iliad or similar sources.

If you want to find out what happened to the Holy Ghost of God after he was crucified, you MUST read Matthew 28, Mark 16, or some similar source.

If you want to find out how Achilles died, you MUST read the Iliad or similar sources. You are not allowed to guess.


If you think that the Jesus of the NT was only human, please present your sources of antiquity that clearly show Jesus was human.

The NT and Church writings are sources of antiquity for the Holy Ghost of God just like the Iliad is the source for Achilles, the offspring of a sea-goddess

You have not even began to supply any historical evidence that Jesus, the human, did live, yet you believe he died. First show that Jesus, the human, did live using sources of antiquity.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

There are no sources of antiquity external of the NT and Church writings that mentioned Jesus except forgeries in Josephus, and even then the forged passage described Jesus as Supernatural, he rose from the dead.

Both internally and externally, Jesus was described as a myth.

kcdad

I am not doing that. That is what you are doing. You disregard or dismiss. I take it all into consideration. I give more weight to some writings than others... just like reading newspapers, or watching TV news. I give some reports greater weight than others.

Sure... if you believe in metaphors... I GUARANTEE that a ghost did not impregnate Mary. Whether they believed it or not is another story...
Are you kidding me? Homer wrote a mythological epic poem... NOT a history.

Nonsense. Neither of these writers knew anything about Jesus conception.
Are you referring to the mythical or historical Achilles?

Neither the Holy "Ghost" (sic) nor God were crucified... they dont' make crosses that big.

OK, the mythical Achilles... I understand.


The Gospels. Jesus' own words make him human... tempted of the devil (is God tempted by the devil?), bleed and suffocate to death... does God bleed or breath? Be reasonable and not so literal as the fundamentalists you make fun of.

They are a source for the churches doctrines only.

Can you prove that the Earth existed 200,000 years ago?

Bah. I think you are a most senseless propositioner.

Do you really believe that? You know nothing of extra canonical writings?????


And both internally and externally he was described as a real human being.

So you choose to disregard all the historical human accounts... fine. That's your biz. Is that any more reasonable than those who disregard all the mythological accounts?
After all... we KNOW real people are mythologized. Do we know of any mythological people who became real???

aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

Sometime in the 2nd century, based on Church writings, there was a man called Marcion who put forward the notion that Jesus was a Phantom. He would declare that Jesus only looked human but was not real.

According to Justin Martyr, the Marcionites laughed at or ridiculed those who believed Jesus was fully God and fully man. Marcion believed Jesus was only fully God.

This is a writer using the name Tertullian on Marcion in "On The Flesh Of Christ" 1.

This is Justin on Marcion in "First Apology" 58 So, Marcion claimed Jesus had NO flesh, and Justin claimed that Marcion had NO PROOF.

Well, it appears that Justin was wrong. Once Justin believed the Jesus stories were true as found in gMatthew, and gMark or Memoirs of the Apostles, then Marcion had PROOF that Jesus was not human or did not have human flesh.

Examine the story where Peter, the supposed bishop of Rome, saw Jesus walking on the sea during a storm.

Matthew 14.22-27 So Jesus has identified himself as the water-walker. Jesus said IT IS I.

NOW, IS THE TEST.

Peter, The supposed first bishop of Rome will CARRY OUT THE FLESH TEST with Jesus.

1.The one who WALKS ON WATER IS NON-FLESH.

2.The one who sinks is HUMAN FLESH.

Peter verifies again that it was Jesus and the FLESH TEST begins.

Matthew 14.28-33 Now, the average specific gravity of an adult human is just a little less than that of water, so a person comprised of normal human flesh will SINK up to around the ears, and will initially be completely submerged, if an attempt is made to walk on water.

Peter, the supposed first bishop of Rome passed the HUMAN FLESH TEST, he began to SINK.

JESUS FAILED the HUMAN FLESH TEST.

JESUS WALKED ON WATER. HE WAS A SPIRIT THAT LOOKED HUMAN.

The story of Jesus walking on water provided the PROOF for Marcion.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition. Jesus was just a belief, or intended to be believed.