post tenebras lux

The snippet in question is so short as to be meaningless unless Josephus had explained who this 'jesus called chist' character was elsewhere, which he didn't. Unless, of course, this 'jesus called christ' figure was so famous as to not need an explanation. Except that if he was so famous what possible reason could there be for Josephus not to have written about him? The only reason I can think of is an ineffable reason, which is the same excuse that HJers fall back on to explain Paul's silences, apparent lack of knowledge of, and contradictions, etc.

Who was the intended audience for Josephus and his writings? How could the phrase 'Jesus called Christ' be understandable to them if Josephus never explains who he is? On the other hand, to a pious scribe, either interpolating the phrase or mistakenly including a marginal gloss, the phrase would be fully understandable.

The reason I called it a cut'n'paste is because (a) it was a recognisable phrase for a christian scribe taken straight from the bible, and (b) to counter the usual claim that it is an 'unchristian' phrase, i.e. that a christian scribe would never use such a low key phrase.

Thanks. I learnt some latin but never any greek grammar. Ben appears to have answered my ignorance.

S.C.Carlson

Actually Josephus already did in AJ 18.64 (according to most scholars): "Yet the tribe of the Christians, named after him, has not disappeared even to this day."

Stephen

post tenebras lux

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Please Stephen, try and be serious. :banghead:

Doug Shaver

Yes, but their opponents have a humongous mass of evidence that it did, and the deniers have to ground their position on allegations that the evidence has been either fabricated or distorted, and they must furthermore conjure up a massive conspiracy behind all the fabrication and distortion.

jgibson000

Isn't this often just what those who claim interpolation in Jospehus or Tacitus or in the NT do?

Jeffrey Gibson

S.C.Carlson

I am. The partially interpolated hypothesis commands a majority of Josephan scholars, and the portion I quoted isn't one of the interpolations. It's OK to disagree with the majority view of the experts with principled reasons, but ignoring that view as if it does not exist is unserious.

Stephen

Mythra

It's my understanding that the TF isn't mentioned by anyone until Eusebius in the fourth century.

When Origen cited Josephus in Contra Celsum, how could he have failed to go into great detail about this passage - had it existed at that time?

This may be an argument from silence - but it speaks pretty loudly to me.

post tenebras lux

Josephan scholars? Are you sure those guys are really josephan scholar and not theologians, biblical scholars and christian apologists? Either way, as another poster on this board has said, to try and claim that you can recognise the 'genuine josephan' in that passage after removing christian interpolations is similar to picking your piece of buttered toast up off the floor, spending twenty minutes picking all the visible pieces of fly shit off it, and then declaring it safe to eat.

Out of interest what version of the partially interpolated hypothesis do you go with? i.e. could you kindly post here what you think that passage originally was, as written by Josephus.

Mythra

When you read Antiquities of the Jews - you notice the exhaustive details that Josephus goes to dealing with all manner of characters, large and small.

When you get to the testimonium, there are just a few lines about Jesus. It is highly atypical of anything else written by F.J. Even if there had been a historical jesus who merely agitated the priesthood and was hung on a cross, you would expect more details from Josephus. If the gospel tale were totally true, you would expect an entire book by Josephus.

I suppose it's possible that Josephus wrote the TF, but it sure doesn't pass the probability test.

S.C.Carlson

If you want to be serious, this isn't the way to show it.

My thoughts (still under construction) have been posted on my blog; for a list of my posts, see my Testimonium Flavianum series.

Stephen