maddog

If this is not a formal "debate," but simply an explanation of atheism, I would recommend talking about your own personal experience. If you used to be a theist, talk about that and about your personal feelings of uneasiness and the causes for that. How you resolved the conflicts to your own satisfaction. What your reason tells you is and is not "evidence" for something. Keep it simple.

For me, the problem of evil is very telling, based on the theistic claims of an omni-max God. If God is not omni-max, that's something else again, but I don't know if the church thinks such a god is worthy of worship.

Other problems I have: The inability to perceive something that others say they perceive -- the non-replicable nature of religious experience, as opposed to natural phenomena. Ethical problems I worry about from some Bible stories/events. E.g., the 10 Commandments, claimed to be a foundation of morality, actually have little to do with morality, and most real people's real morality is better than the 10C's. For instance, "Honor thy parents," is part and parcel of authoritarianism; how much more moral it would be if parents had been enjoined to "honor their children."

I'm just using examples of things that don't make sense to me. I can't "make" myself "believe" something that doesn't make sense to me. I could pretend to go along with the dominant culture, but I don't think people expect me to be dishonest. I doubt the theists would desire dishonest converts, and surely God does not reward dishonesty; even more fundamentally, it's impossible to be dishonest with my inner self.

Koyaanisqatsi

I agree with seebs in that you need to know why you're doing this.

If it's just to impart a little tolerance toward atheism, then I would say you do as maddog suggested and simply tell them about what lead you to your deconversion and then just open the floor to questions. Sort of an "ask the atheist" thing. If they are the ones who come up with the questions to try to stump you (which some probably will), then you're in a better position to not only answer their questions, but demonstrate how critical analysis leads to reasoned deconversion.

If, however, you're actually going to attempt to deconvert some of them, well, then you've got an exceedingly difficult task on your hands and I would suggest you go after the "biggies" instead of anything specific (i.e., biblical contradictions or the like). I'd start by asking everyone why Jesus died on the cross. The answer will be "for our sins." Then ask, "for our sins in general or for Adam's sin, the one that brought death upon us and got Adam and Eve ejected out of paradise?"

If they answer, "For sins in general," then ask them why our sins aren't automatically forgiven, regardless of whether or not we believe in Jesus? After all, what is a sacrifice if it has strings attached to it? "I'll jump on this grenade and save all of you, but only if you'll all, right now, convert to Islam."

Hardly a selfless sacrifice.

If they answer, "for Adam's sin," (which they should, since that's the reason given in scripture) then ask them why we aren't born directly into Paradise? After all, if Adam was ejected from Paradise for his sin and Jesus' death pays for that sin, then why weren't all subsequent humans born directly into Paradise as Adam originally was?

That usually stumps them enough to make them go, "Wha....?" and then you have an opening to go into other, more specific examples of critical analysis (such as a lengthy deconstruction of the trial sequence from Mark and why it couldn't have occured as it is written, including how Paul says to the Thessolonians that "the Jews" killed Jesus and Mark tells us that Pilate killed Jesus; make sure you read 1 Thessolonians in detail, because they'll try to make it seem as if Paul meant that the "Jews" conspired to kill Jesus, which isn't true, he says nothing of the kind nor does he imply it; and Mark makes it clear that it is Pilate who kills Jesus because of his fear of the "crowd," but regardless it is he who orders the death, so Paul is wrong).

The Easter challenge is an excellent one to do with them, by the way and could be the whole or meat of the discussion. I would go in prepared with xeroxes of all the relevant sections and ask them all to go through with you (preferrably on a chalkboard or the like) and see if they can be reconciled (I'm assuming the "Easter" challenge, btw, is the one I'm thinking of; trying to reconcile all versions of the passion narrative without leaving anything out). A good way to get them to do this, btw, is to say, "If anyone can do this, leaving nothing out, then I will reconvert right this very second."

If they try to pull the old "different witnesses with differing stories proves the veracity of it" ploy, then point out that there was only ONE witness and that was god (since the gospels are all supposed to be "god breathed").

I would also keep it as short as possible (no longer than say, fifteen minutes), because you really want, IMO, to get them to ask you questions. That way they are already engaged in critical thinking and your answers will serve to keep them thinking (until, of course, they get spun back by their minister).

Good luck and I certainly hope you'll post the reaction.

Jeremy_the _Atheist

Maddog,

After a conversation I have earlier tonight with my brother, this the approach I have decided to take. I'm going basically go through, step by step, what it was that lead me to abandon theism.

I decided that the way I'm going to handle the evolution/creationism issue, because it will come up (if I don't bring it up, someone else will), is to simply point out that the evolution theory does not work like the way that creationists claim it does. I will point out that creationist arguments never actually work on people that have some understanding of the real actual evolutionary theory and that by attacking the evolutionary theory by using the standard creationist arguments, the only thing they succeed in is giving the listener the impression that they are gullible and ignorant.
I will tell them that as soon as they start to go the evolution/creation route, they lose their audience.

I will tell them I will not attempt to debate evolution/creationism with them but instead tell that if they want to find out how it actually works, go to the library and check out some books or go to the bookstore. There are plenty of reasonably priced books on evolution. They don't have to agree with what they are reading but it would help them alot in talking to people if they really understood what it was they talking about in this area.

I will then reccommend some good books such as The Blind Watchmaker, Climbing mount improbable, or River out of Eden, all by Richard Dawkins.

Jeremy_the _Atheist

Koyaanisqatsi,

Yeah, I'm just going to tell my own deconversion story and open the floor to questions.

My goal really partly tolerance but also to get them to start thinking critically. I already know none of them are going to deconvert that night. It takes years sometimes. It took me roughly between 1 and 2 years. (I didn't keep a good journal during that time so I don't know exactly how long it took.)

I will present the easter challenge, but not go through it with them unless some one requests it. I will tell them that if they can email me the story that does not contradict any bible verse, then (I am considering either telling them I will reconvert, or I will give the winner $1000 dollars). I will do as you suggest and tell them that remember, it's not four different witnesses but one because all bible is divinely inspired.

What do you think?

BTW, what is the meaning of your name?

maddog

Good luck, Jeremy!

Jeremy_the _Atheist

Maddog,

Thank you.

Right now, I am working on my own deconversion story. I'll post it in a new thread when it's done.

I think that approach will be best.

Thanks again.

Jeremy

P.S. They will video tape the meeting. After it's over, if I find the time, I will transcribe it and post it here.

Koyaanisqatsi

It's ancient Hopi Indian and it means, roughly: Crazy life. Life out of balance. A way of life that calls for another way of living.

It's from the movie/documentary of the same name and I highly recommend it (Koyaanisqatsi).

Jeremy_the _Atheist

Koyaanisqatsi,

Thank you

Koyaanisqatsi

Jeremy_the _Atheist,

You are welcome.

4God

Jeremy,

the intent was not to play a game, as it were. I was legitimately(sp?) trying to hep you. If that was wasting your time, i won't further.