Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 08-28-2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Please give me your alternate explanation for the rise of christianity in those 300 years

It rose the same way every other religion has ever risen. The people who believed in it convinced other people that it was the truth. The first Jews did it that way. The first Muslims did it that way. The first Buddhists did it that way. The first Mormons did it that way. The first Jehovah's Witnesses did it that way. They all did it that way.

Throughout all of humanity's history, that is how every religion has risen. There is no prima facie reason for thinking that Christianity was different. If you are claiming that it was different in that respect, the burden of proof is on you.

angelo · 08-28-2008, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

The ancient myths of Osiris or Dionysus for one.
1.Orsiris-Dionysus is God made flesh, the saviour and 'Son of God'
2.His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
3.He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on 25 December before three shepherds
4.He offers his followers the chance to be born through the rites of baptism.
5.He miraculoiusly turns water into wine at a marriege ceremony.
6.He rides into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honour him.
7.He dies at Easter time as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
8.After his death he descends into hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends into heaven in glory.
9.His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
10.His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and blood.

These are just some of the motifs shared between the tales of Osiris-Dionysus and a 'biography' of Jesus.
[Source-- The Jesus Mysteries.]

I'm afraid you have misunderstood what I was saying.

Leaving aside the very dodgy nature of some of these claims, they are mostly irrelevant to the parallels between Jesus and Apollonius.

Eg assume FTSOA that the violent deaths of Osiris and Dionysus-Zagreus are a parallel to the violent death of Jesus. This would still be irelevant to the parallels between Jesus and Apollonius (who did not die a violent death.)

What I was asking is which ancient myths contain parallels to things claimed about both Jesus and Apollonius.

Andrew Criddle

So the claims in the gospels aren't dodgy in a similar way?

gregor · 08-28-2008, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Please give me your alternate explanation for the rise of [the LDS church ] in [the past 150] years if you do not beleive [Joseph Smith received golden plates from a new world Jesus]. start at whatever year you like and work your way backward.

~Steve

Right back at 'cha babe.

Net2004 · 08-28-2008, 06:10 AM

Quote:

The apostles did not get rich or pwerful. They were killed for what they taught. Mohammed became very rich and very powerful.

according to the hadeeth narrations muhammad suffered persecution for 13 years thats why he had to migrate to medina.Muhammad according to the hadeeth accounts suffered 3 times more than your god.

Net2004 · 08-28-2008, 06:22 AM

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No, in the Koran, you have one claim to hearing one voice in a cave.

where in the quran is this claim?

Quote:

What eyewitnesses do you have in the Koran that attest to its truth besides Mohammed?

according to various hadeeth accounts muhammad's companions were eyewitnesses to revelation of the qur'an.hadeeth narrations are far superior than any gospel accounts, according to muslims, because of the chain of narration system developed by muhammads companions and earliest muslim scholars.

1 example

Quote:

Al-bukhari's conditions of admitting a hadith as Sahih hadith signified not only that the immediate links in the chain of isnad were contemporaries of one another , but also that they had actually met and direct hearing took place between the teacher and disciple.

sschlichter · 08-28-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

Oh, they have the Splitting of the Moon miracle, which they allege was not only seen by his companions, but also by the nearby villagers as well as caravans in the area. They also claim that there are numerous # prophecies in the Qur'an that have been confirmed by modern science.

good example. do you have the writings of any eye-witnesses besides Mohammed. Not the claims of people that beleive Mohammed but other first hand witnesses. Not the claim that the villagers saw it but the writings of the villagers.

Quote:

And IIRC, Muhammad flew on a winged horse or somesuch, but I can't be bothered to look it up.

writings of witnesses besides Mohammed, please.

Quote:

That Muhammad and his followers were militarily successful just goes to show how they had the support of The Almighty! :Cheeky:

You can tell a tree by it's fruit. I guess it comes down to what kind of tree you beleive God to be.

Do you beleive God to be like that then you might interpret those events that way. I am not sure how since people of all forms and beliefs have been conquering the world long before Mohammed.

However, God (in Christ) revealed himself to be more like this:

(Php 2:6) who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
(Php 2:7) but emptied himself
by taking on the form of a slave,
by looking like other men,
and by sharing in human nature.
(Php 2:8) He humbled himself,
by becoming obedient to the point of death
- even death on a cross!

sschlichter · 08-28-2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

Quote:

No, in the Koran, you have one claim to hearing one voice in a cave.

where in the quran is this claim?

according to various hadeeth accounts muhammad's companions were eyewitnesses to revelation of the qur'an.hadeeth narrations are far superior than any gospel accounts, according to muslims, because of the chain of narration system developed by muhammads companions and earliest muslim scholars.

1 example

Quote:

Al-bukhari's conditions of admitting a hadith as Sahih hadith signified not only that the immediate links in the chain of isnad were contemporaries of one another , but also that they had actually met and direct hearing took place between the teacher and disciple.

yes, teacher and disciple. The revelation was hidden from the disciple and revealed only to the teacher who told it to the disciple. I beleive Mohammed existed and had followers. that is not in question, in my mind.

Who heard the voice of Gabriel besides Mohammed?

In the case of Christ, God revealed himself and his plan of salvation out in the open for teachers, disciples, friends, and enemies.

sschlichter · 08-28-2008, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregor

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Please give me your alternate explanation for the rise of [the LDS church ] in [the past 150] years if you do not beleive [Joseph Smith received golden plates from a new world Jesus]. start at whatever year you like and work your way backward.

~Steve

Right back at 'cha babe.

please do not pretend to quote me and change the quote.

A man claimed to have received golden plates but also claims the Angel told him not to show anyone the plates. There are no other witnesses as is the pattern. He is a charismatic person who leads many to believe him (as occurs often). the movement is based on very strong familial foundations and a moral code that is adopted from Christianity and as some truth as its foundation. The familial strengths and moral girdings grow the religion to where it is today. What cause would I have to assume there is any truth in this?

that is my alternate explanation. Is there any evidence that this is not a valid explanation?

My original post was this.

Please give me your alternate explanation for the rise of Christianity in those 300 years if you do not beleive the apostles existed. start at whatever year you like and work your way backward.

Can you please do the same with Christianity?

~Steve

sschlichter · 08-28-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

The apostles . . . were killed for what they taught.

So says your evangelical dogma. There is no contemporary evidence supporting it. For most of the apostles, there is no good evidence even for their existence, let alone the circumstances in which they died.

What year do you suppose the existence of the apostles was manufactured?

Huon · 08-28-2008, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Who heard the voice of Gabriel besides Mohammed?

In gLuke, Gabriel foretells to Zachary the birth of John the Baptist, and to Mary that of Jesus.

Quote:

Luke 1:19 The angel answered and said to him (Zacharias), "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.
Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,
Luke 1:27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
Luke 1:31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

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