Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 10-12-2005, 08:08 PM

Discussions about the merits of modern Israel, atheism and Islam are certainly not topics for the Biblical Criticism and History forum. Please be responsible and deal with forum issues and take the other matters no another forum.

spin

austin2 · 10-12-2005, 08:29 PM

http://www.breslov.com/bible/Genesis32.htm#23

Quote:

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
26
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him.
27
And he said: 'Let me go, for the day breaketh.' And he said: 'I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.'
28
And he said unto him: 'What is thy name?' And be said: 'Jacob.'
29
And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with G-d and with men, and hast prevailed.'
30
And Jacob asked him, and said: 'Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.' And he said: 'Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?' And he blessed him there.
31
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen G-d face to face, and my life is preserved.'
32
And the sun rose upon him as he passed over Peniel, and he limped upon his thigh.
33
Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sinew of the thigh-vein which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh, even in the sinew of the thigh-vein.

http://www.breslov.com/bible/Amos9.htm#9

Quote:

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof, and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;
12
That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations, upon whom My name is called, saith HaShem that doeth this.
13
Behold, the days come, saith HaShem, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14
And I will turn the captivity of My people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them, saith HaShem thy G-d.

Biff..

the form of government is non sequitor, and meaningless to this conversation

you don't believe Abraham was chosen? or Jacob?

How does one explaint the above, written more than 2000 years ago?

This is Israel then, and now

Biff the unclean · 10-12-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by austin2

the form of government is non sequitor, and meaningless to this conversation

The form of government just points out how meaningless “prophecy�? is.

Quote:

you don't believe Abraham was chosen?

Of course not. I’ve read his story and the fellow is clearly psychopathic. He attempted to murder two children. How could I think he was chosen and not think that Andrea Yates is also chosen? How can I consider Andrea Yates insane and not consider Abraham the same?

Quote:

or Jacob?

He has a wrestling match with God and beats Him. Ooooookay, God's got a bum hip.
This is the same Jacob who speaks to God in dreams where ladders stretch from the earth to the firmament.
Jacob is a fairytale fit only for halfwits.

Quote:

How does one explaint the above, written more than 2000 years ago?

This is Israel then, and now

It’s wishful thinking and idle boasting...a rather simple explaination.
That was Israel then, and this is another country called Israel now. BUT THERE ARE GRAPES GROWING THERE!!!! Wow, magic!! Imagine that. Grapes growing in a place like that, where there have been vineyards for four or five thousand years, grapes LOL. :rolling:

austin2 · 10-15-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

Scant evidence, that.

You seem to be confusing "Moslems" and "Arabs" here. I need not tell you the two are not the same. Not to mention painting "hate" with a much-too-broad brush.

Islam traditionally/historically was quite tolerant of both Christians and Jews - much more so than Christians and Jews have been tolerant of Islam. Indeed, Islam freely acknowledged that the three religions share the same roots. Historically, both Christians and Jews were tolerated in Islamic nations, allowed to practice their religions as long as they abided by the rules of the State.

Further, Islam believes Jesus was a prophet - but it is not exactly correct to say that "they" believe that "Christ was real."

95% of arabs are moslem, and the Christians having been forceablyarabized are dhimmis...subjugated under islam, living under sharia laws pertaining to unbelievers

the tolerance of muslims is a lie

this is what muslims consider tolerance http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

Quote:

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

subdued and humiliated while acknowledging the superiority of islam

islam claims everything from Jews and Christians

big deal...allah has nothing in common with the Judeo-Christian G-d which strives for the holy

islam strives for domination and humiliation of non muslims

islam is an african death cult..nothing to do with Abraham, except theft

Johnny Skeptic · 10-15-2005, 10:47 AM

The topic question is 'Why was Abraham chosen'? Who says that Abraham "was" chosen? There is no external evidence that God chose Abraham, and there is no evidence that Jews have ever inhabited all of the land of Canaan. Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Obviously, the land of Canaan HAS NOT been an everlasting possession of Abraham's descendants, nor are there any good reasons that it should have been since the vast majority of Jews have always rejected Christianity. In addition, today, historians do not know what area comprises all of the land of ancient Canaan, and even if they did, the frequently changing borders of Israel most certainly are not the same as the borders of the ancient land of Canaan.

Chili · 10-15-2005, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Obviously, the land of Canaan HAS NOT been an everlasting possession of Abraham's descendants, nor are there any good reasons that it should have been since the vast majority of Jews have always rejected Christianity. In addition, today, historians do not know what area comprises all of the land of ancient Canaan, and even if they did, the frequently changing borders of Israel most certainly are not the same as the borders of the ancient land of Canaan.

Of course it has. The land of Canaan is their aboriginal heritage like just Christendom is for Catholics. That is how the lineage of Jesus was revealed to him while he was at the Royal Wedding (read hypostatic union) in Cana.

Johnny Skeptic · 10-16-2005, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Obviously, the land of Canaan HAS NOT been an everlasting possession of Abraham's descendants, nor are there any good reasons that it should have been since the vast majority of Jews have always rejected Christianity. In addition, today, historians do not know what area comprises all of the land of ancient Canaan, and even if they did, the frequently changing borders of Israel most certainly are not the same as the borders of the ancient land of Canaan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chili

Of course it has.

Where is your evidence? Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." The verse says "all" of the land of Canaan. There is no evidence that Jews have ever occupied all of the land of Canaan, and since Israel became a modern nation in 1948, its borders have frequently changed. Today, we do not know what area of the Middle East represents the ancient land of Canaan.

Now will you please tell me how in the world the Jews could have occupied Canaan while they were in captivity in Egypt, that is, if you believe that they were held in captivity in Egypt? Do you believe that God made a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, and that God enabled Jews to establish the modern nation of Israel in 1948? It is important to note that Jews had Jesus killed, and that the vast majority of Jews have rejected Christianity for the past 2,000 years.

Chili · 10-16-2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Now will you please tell me how in the world the Jews could have occupied Canaan while they were in captivity in Egypt, that is, if you believe that they were held in captivity in Egypt? Do you believe that God made a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, and that God enabled Jews to establish the modern nation of Israel in 1948? It is important to note that Jews had Jesus killed, and that the vast majority of Jews have rejected Christianity for the past 2,000 years.

It is a mental occupation . . . "and I will be their God" should tell you this. A new mythology needs a new God and one cannot be captive in Egypt unless one belongs elsewhere . . . which was and still is Canaan where the Tigris flows into the Euphrates. This is like home, Johnny, whence they came and to which they will return.

That Canaan is like a stranger means that Jews are also banned from Eden while they are in exile but this territory is intuitly theirs like a subconscious heritage that makes Jews by birth also Jewish by nature. This makes Judaism a tradition with a home instead of a phony religion without a home who's followers will never even be worthy to as much as walk in the shadow of a Jew (and I am not Jewish).

No, they convicted him to die according to their law which was the fate of those born of Sarah here called Mary -- who is definitely not Christian or she would not be free and hence Christians could not be free. Now are the Christians you know free or are they impostors?

Johnny Skeptic · 10-16-2005, 08:05 AM

Message to Chili: Just so I understand you correctly, you agree with me that there is no credible evidence that God actually chose Abraham, right?

Chili · 10-16-2005, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to Chili: Just so I understand you correctly, you agree with me that there is no credible evidence that God actually chose Abraham, right?

But he did and they will be the envy of the world because of this. I actually think that the fact that you are trying to measure them is sufficient proof of this.

On the practical side I would love to measure them but I haven't found one farming around here and that tells me enough.

10-15-2005, 10:47 AM	#135
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Why was Abraham chosen? The topic question is 'Why was Abraham chosen'? Who says that Abraham "was" chosen? There is no external evidence that God chose Abraham, and there is no evidence that Jews have ever inhabited all of the land of Canaan. Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Obviously, the land of Canaan HAS NOT been an everlasting possession of Abraham's descendants, nor are there any good reasons that it should have been since the vast majority of Jews have always rejected Christianity. In addition, today, historians do not know what area comprises all of the land of ancient Canaan, and even if they did, the frequently changing borders of Israel most certainly are not the same as the borders of the ancient land of Canaan.

10-16-2005, 08:05 AM	#139
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Why was Abraham chosen? Message to Chili: Just so I understand you correctly, you agree with me that there is no credible evidence that God actually chose Abraham, right?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-12-2005, 08:08 PM	#131
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Discussions about the merits of modern Israel, atheism and Islam are certainly not topics for the Biblical Criticism and History forum. Please be responsible and deal with forum issues and take the other matters no another forum. spin

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.