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Old 09-27-2005, 11:23 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Amaleq
I rejected the reliability of a general group statistic that approached 50/50. My use of "specific" has been consistent but is applied to different contexts. I'm suggesting we would need to focus on factors that are specifically relevant to Paul and look for percentage differences that are specifically predictive (ie have a high degree of reliability). Any factor that is specific to Paul and obtains a high percentage of one particular use enhances the reliability of our prediction.
Ok. I'm curious what pctg for the general group would be reliable enough for you to see no need to focus on more specific factors relevant to Paul?

Also, I'm curious how you would handle a case that is similar to my made up example. For example:

What if

1. The general use of 'apo' is for indirect receipt of information 80% of the time. The general use covers 100 examples.
2. Within the 100 we can identify 20 people with Paul's educational background. For those 'apo' means indirect 70% of the time, and something else 30% of the time.
3. Within the 100 are 10 people born and raised in Paul's own hometown. For those 'apo' means DIRECT 100% of the time.

Which factor is most meaningful? We have two significant but opposing specific factors. It seems to me in such a case we need a sample of people with Paul's education background AND raised in his own hometown.


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I think it is important to understand how to interpret statistics because they can be so easily manipulated to serve a preferred conclusion.
I agree.

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Old 09-27-2005, 11:41 AM   #102
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Moving on with our discussion about 'apo' and how Paul recieved this information, here is an excerpt from JP Holding on the subject, and his take on Doherty's comments about it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.tektonics.org/doherty/dohertycircle.html

Last Supper Call
In 1 Cor. 11:23-26, Paul presents us with these words:
"For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

An obvious reference to the historical event we call the "Last Supper" - except in the Sand Castle Realm, of course. What does Doherty make of this passage?

His answer is in part reliant on his arguments relative to the uses of the words "gospel" and "received" elsewhere in 1 Corinthians - and that argument, we have shown in this series and elsewhere, to be misplaced. Doherty supposes here that we can see this material as revealed to Paul in a vision, and hence suppose further that this was not an earthly event, but one done in the nether-regions of imaginary spheres of existence. But again, we have seen that these arguments to not bear out under scrutiny.

A second argument - actually a counter to an argument in favor of the earthly interpretation - refers to what Doherty calls "the battle of the prepositions." Noting that the phrase here, "For I received from the Lord" is apo tou kuriou in Greek, Doherty writes:

"In the Greek of the time, when someone speaks of information received from another as the immediate, direct source, the preposition "para" is most often used. On the other hand, the preposition "apo" is most often used to signify the remote, or ultimate source of a piece of information. Thus Paul, they say, if he had meant to say that Jesus had delivered this information to him personally, would have used para. As it is, in using apo, he is referring to Jesus as the originator of these words, as if to say, "these words came ultimately from the Lord himself." "

This argument, which Doherty lifts from the International Critical Commentary without credit, seems quite sound on its face. But does Doherty agree? Not so; he registers two objections:

"Unfortunately for this argument, these different usages were not strict. (See Moulton: A Grammar of New Testament Greek, vol. 1 Prolegomena, p. 237.) Even the New Testament contains apo used in the opposite sense (Colossians 1:17, "as you learned from Epaphras," and Matthew 11:29, "learn from me.") Thus, there was no guarantee that the Corinthians would have understood such a "remote antecedent" meaning, or that Paul intended it. "

Unfortunately, I must here, again, reprimand Doherty for not reporting his source material properly. Moulton indicates that there is evidence showing that "in daily speech" the preposition was not used with exactness of distinction. Paul, having (as Doherty acknowledges) a much more precise and intelligent mind than the average person, would be unlikely to suffer from such inexactness of speech, regardless of what his Corinthian readers thought.

As for the two verses - let's look at them. First, what the Strong-man has to say about apo:
"575. apo, apo'; a prim. particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; lit. or fig.):--(X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
Now to the verses. The first is actually Colossians 1:7, not 1:17 -:
Col. 1:6b-7 All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth. You learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf..."

Doherty perhaps wishes to argue that the Colossians learned of the gospel directly from Epaphras, and so apo here does not indicate distance. But one might suggest here that apo, in accordance with its other usages, means that the Colossians learned of the gospel first from Epaphras, so that this passage allows that others have taught the Colossians about the gospel since then! It may also mean that Epaphras was some sort of "missionary in chief" who directed someone else to teach the Colossians. Whatever the case, any answer is necessarily speculative, but there is certainly no reason here not to think that apo means anything other than what we would argue in does in 1 Cor. 11:23.

Now to the second verse:
Matt. 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Here again, however, we have an "inlet" which indicates a past action of some sort. This verse comes after the end of a mini-sermon by Jesus in which he has denounced the cities of Korazin and Bethsaida for not repenting in the face of his miracles. Jesus then goes on to praise the Father for having revealed the truth to "little children". The passage would seem to indicate that Jesus is telling the listeners to learn from past actions of his - in this case, a proper exegetical suggestion would be, that very truth which Jesus has previously revealed. Once again, we have a suggestion of distance, and nothing but support for our interpretation of 1 Cor. 11:23.

Bottom line: While most scholars since the ICC have not been so bold as to engage the "battle of the prepositions" so directly - preferring instead to say that the use of apo neither proves nor disproves our argument - we would suggest that the data, both the use of the word and in light of Paul's precision, does indeed fit our argument better than it does Doherty's.
Now to the second objection, which reads rather peculiarly:

"Besides, if Jesus were being referred to only in the sense that he is the ultimate source of the words, this gives Paul's statement another less than logical cast. If he is going to go on to say that Jesus spoke certain words, why preface it with a separate statement which identifies Jesus as the source of these words? This is at best a very awkward redundancy. "

Once again, I find Doherty's clarity somewhat lacking here, but will presume that his point is that this statement would be awkward in the same sense that an English phrase like "Here's what I heard about Joe: That Joe said..." would be awkward. True enough: That phrase might earn a red mark on an English paper according to modern stylistic notions; but then again, Paul was obviously not an expert in English "stylism". We may suggest, further, than if Paul is quoting a formulaic tradition here starting with the words "The Lord Jesus...", then the "awkward redundancy" is quite explicable. Whatever the case, there is no support for Doherty's notion of a non-earthly tradition; and then again, even if Paul were indicating a direct revelation from the Lord, then the redundancy remains quite as "awkward" as it did otherwise!
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Old 09-27-2005, 01:23 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by TedM
Ok. I'm curious what pctg for the general group would be reliable enough for you to see no need to focus on more specific factors relevant to Paul?
The best would be to have a mathematical method for establishing the reliability. Absent that, we are left with a subjective call. "[N]o need"? That's pretty extreme so I would imagine a pretty extreme percentage difference would be required. Upper 90's?

I would think anything between 70% - 80% would be significant enough for consideration.

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Which factor is most meaningful?
We aren't trying to identify the most meaningful factor. We are trying to use more specific information to increase the reliability of our guess. All factors with that large of a discrepancy should be considered.

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We have two significant but opposing specific factors. It seems to me in such a case we need a sample of people with Paul's education background AND raised in his own hometown.
I agree that would be optimal. The original small sample size, though, creates a reliability problem for all three statistics. Bigger sample size = greater reliability. If we throw on a zero to everything (ie 1000 total), I would want to know more about why 100% of the people from Paul's hometown made that choice. That sounds like the result of a local school rule and, if that is where Paul was educated, we would have more reason to rely on it. If, on the other hand, he was educated elsewhere, I would find that 70% number pretty persuasive.

If we don't know why the hometown origin is skewed so heavily, I don't know how much these numbers would help us since that seem to give conflicting information. I think we'd still be left not having a reliable basis to guess what Paul meant.
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Old 09-27-2005, 01:37 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by TedM
Moving on with our discussion about 'apo' and how Paul recieved this information, here is an excerpt from JP Holding on the subject, and his take on Doherty's comments about it:
As far as I'm concerned, "Holding" only offers two interesting points and the first one is really only the starting point to something potentially informative. In and of itself it is only suggestive.

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Moulton indicates that there is evidence showing that "in daily speech" the preposition was not used with exactness of distinction. Paul, having (as Doherty acknowledges) a much more precise and intelligent mind than the average person, would be unlikely to suffer from such inexactness of speech, regardless of what his Corinthian readers thought.
Having a "precise and intelligent mind" does not preclude one from using the conventions of daily speech in one's writing. I would think this might be especially true if the conventions belonged to a group to whom you were attempting to write a persuasive letter. What would be informative is to collect and analyze data supporting the claim that Paul "would be unlikely to suffer from such inexactness of speech".

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While most scholars since the ICC have not been so bold as to engage the "battle of the prepositions" so directly - preferring instead to say that the use of apo neither proves nor disproves our argument...
I suspect this is probably the most reasonable conclusion as unsatisfying as it may be. I'm not surprised that he prefers his own speculations, though.
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Old 09-27-2005, 01:46 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Amaleq13
I would think anything between 70% - 80% would be significant enough for consideration.
I agree. I put the word 'common' in that category normally, but without real numbers to work with I don't have any idea what the true pct is for the general use.


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We aren't trying to identify the most meaningful factor. We are trying to use more specific information to increase the reliability of our guess. All factors with that large of a discrepancy should be considered.
I agree that all should be considered. I guess the pctgs themselves take care of any need to weight the factors based on meaning.

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If, on the other hand, he was educated elsewhere, I would find that 70% number pretty persuasive.
If the general usage is 70% one way and the specific useage is also 70%, it seems to me that there is added value from using that particular specific group, as it seems to conform to the norm. (edit after A's reply: oops, I meant no added value) THe likelihood is 70% whether both factors are considered or just one. Would you agree?

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If we don't know why the hometown origin is skewed so heavily, I don't know how much these numbers would help us since that seem to give conflicting information. I think we'd still be left not having a reliable basis to guess what Paul meant.
I don't have a clue how that would be figured into an equation such as Baysien's (sp?). Without knowing why a particular sample is statistically significant, I don't know how we would be able to pick and choose between opposing samples. If we can't, I would think they should both be factored in.

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Old 09-27-2005, 01:58 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by TedM
If the general usage is 70% one way and the specific useage is also 70%, it seems to me that there is added value from using that particular specific group, as it seems to conform to the norm.
I think the added value comes from a significant percentage associated with a factor that appears to be specifically relevant to Paul. (Using my bigger numbers) 140 of the 200 educated people considered chose the common usage. I would consider that supportive of your claim.
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Old 09-27-2005, 02:36 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Amaleq13
I think the added value comes from a significant percentage associated with a factor that appears to be specifically relevant to Paul. (Using my bigger numbers) 140 of the 200 educated people considered chose the common usage. I would consider that supportive of your claim.
Oops. Sorry. I meant 'NO added value', on the grounds that the factor--while more specific to Paul--doesn't deviate from the norm, so there is no evidence that it is a 'factor' that has any affect on them. I wonder what a statistician might say about that..

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