Jack the Bodiless

Another ironic aspect of this is that Dave cannot afford to accept the genealogies as accurate anyhow, which makes his reliance on them as "tablet markers" rather... odd.

They add up to a Flood date that Dave has rejected. Dave's date is considerably older than that from the Masoretic genealogies (but younger than the Septuagint IIRC). So there's a missing tablet? As has already been noted, Enoch doesn't fit...

jupiter

This has been pointed out to Dave before. His response was, Well, there's probably a few generations missing. He was then asked how he squared that statement with his belief in absolute biblical inerrancy. He had no response.

Gressil

I think this is a very telling comment Dave and one that shows you basically have very little idea about what a skeptic is, you seem to be using it as a pejorative term for someone who won't give your theory the time of day.

Let me tell you a little story, a few days ago I knew absolutely nothing about the Documentary Hypothesis nor about the tablet theory. I know very little about the Bible, I have no more desire to read it than the Koran or the book of Mormon. Dean provided a coherent explanation of the DH, why it works and evidence, and he told you why your suppositions are not problems for the DH. All you have done is repeat the suppositions and the use an argument from incredulity about why would anyone arbitrarily split up sentences. Dean provided even more evidence by splitting up the passage you said shouldn't be split an hey presto it looks to me like the DH seems to work, BTW, you have failed to address this.

So, as an honest skeptic (as I class myself) what am I supposed think? Dean explains the DH and actually shows it working by eviscerating your argument. As far as I can see you seem to have not actually show any evidence, haven't explained why the DH is wrong (I personally don't think the 5 suppositions are a problem) and the only reason you seem to think it is wrong is because you don't like the fact it runs contrary to your dogmatic beliefs.

An honest person (or someone who is honest with himself) by just reading this thread could come to no other conclusion than the DH is correct explanation.

Sauron

Yes he means exactly that -- and he'll use Islamic apologetics to prove it to us! :devil:

ericmurphy

If I had to depend on Dave's descriptions for what the documentary hypothesis claims, I wouldn't have the slightest fucking idea what it's even about. I'm persuaded at this point that until Dean posted his explanation of the DH and the evidence supporting it, Dave had not the slightest fucking idea what it's even about, either.

Faid

Well, I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge. Genesis means the act or process of something coming into being (its root is the verb "become", γιγνομαι). It is also associated with the act of giving birth, and its meaning remains the same in modern Greek. It basicaly means beginning, or origin. Which is EXACTLY what the Hebrew word means.
It most certainly does not mean generation(s): the word for that has the same root (just like gene does, heh), but it is entirely different (γενεα). If that was the case, the title would be Γενεαι. NOT Genesis.

Oh and dave, don't even think of pulling an act like "oh well then probably the word genesis meant "generation" once, just not now"- or anything like that. The word γενεα for generation is used ALL the time in the greek translation of the bible. You've heard Αι Γενεαι �*ασαι, I hope?

spin

Have a look at Gen 2:4, 5:1, 6:9, etc. all have plural forms of genesis, all translated as "generations" from the Hebrew TWLDH, "that which is born, ie generation". Check Liddell & Scott.


spin

Silent Dave

Ditto the whole "Prophecy" thing. Why have you not gotten back to that, Dave?

Faid

"That which is born" does not mean generations in greek. And γενεσεις (the plural of genesis) falls under the third definition of the word in the lexicon you provided, "production, generation, coming into being". The same way we use the word in "generator", or "regenerate" today.
It is true that, in Liddel&Scott, "generation" the way dave wants to use it exists as the sixth definition, with (creation or beginning being the first). I'm sceptical of this (the example it gives seems to say how one should live his life just as his ancestors lived), but certainly this is not the normal meaning of the word in greek, not for a long time.

And I'm not sure that the word was a synonym even then: For example, the phrase "Αυται δε αι γενεσεις Νωε" literally means "these are the births of Noah". I believe the meaning here is "this is the tale of Noah and his offspring", which might explain why the KJ translation has the word translated as generation- but it's not. It's the plural of birth. The same as today, and close to the hebrew word.
The greek word for generation (γενεα) is seen again and again in the greek translation, in the very same sentence in this example:

Εβδομηκοντα:
ΚJV:


(Notice that the word γενεα is in singular form in the greek text: If dave was right, the word γενεσις would have been used).

So, it seems that this is a weak argument, based in the rare meaning the plural of the word Genesis may have once had (while the usual meaning the word had in singular form, and still has today, is identical to the hebrew title), and a loose translation in KJ.

But, of course, I could be wrong. What is more than certain, is that the title of Genesis means beginning: the word means the same in hebrew and greek.

spin

And if you look at both texts LXX and Hebrew, you'll find en arxh and BR)$YT. Both mean "in the beginning". The Hebrew title comes from the first word of the text, basically as do the names the other books of the pentateuch. The Greek names are more descriptive. Genesis comes from the frequent refrain of "generations". (TWLDWT is not an exact equivalent, but sufficiently similar for you to understand the relationship.)

You may note Aristotle's peri genesews kai fQoras, in Latin De generatione et corruptione, "of generation(s) and corruption".

Or Gen 40:20, hmera genesews, (the pharaoh's) birthday.


spin