andrewcriddle

IIUC abandoned (non-deformed) babies were quite likely to be picked up. Such exposed children were often reared for later sale as slaves. (The Roman Emperors sought to pass laws regulating this practice.)

Andrew Criddle

The Dagda

Great race the Romans.

To be honest, all the societies at the time were managing to live in ways that they had developed to further society. The idea that we can compare a classical society like the Romans or an ancient one with a modern one, seems pointless. All societies had their positives and negatives, how we measure them is not really applicable with a context we have in modern times. Nor should we stand in judgement over such cultures without context.

credoconsolans

Um, no. The aqueducts gave free water to everyone. Not just the elite. The Romans built roads. Not just for use of the elites.

Of course not. Several of the aqueducts were famous for their leaks. And your point? Their drains and sewers and aqueducts ran on gravity. That normally only goes one way.

Um, no. Why would it? The poor people don't know how to wipe themselves or where the latrines are? They didn't have - excuse the term - a pot to piss in?

Sorry, the baths were - almost without exception - free to the public. ANYone could bathe. And since they were free and gifts from the emperor to the people of Rome, for example, there wouldn't be a need to build one unless there was a demand. Yes, ordinary people bathed regularly.

Yep, and how long do you think that jug of water sat there unused?

Simple experiment. Fill a 3 gallon pitcher of water. Now, for one entire day, use only that pitcher of water for drinking, cooking, bathing and cleaning. How long does that pitcher last? Does it sit around and go stagnant?

Sure. The majority lived in multi-story apartments. They could go down 5 flights of stairs and down the street looking for a public latrine or they could use a chamberpot - they had them you know - they didn't just shit out the windows or on the floors - but there are reports of some pissing out the windows (for which they were fined). But all this was just a matter of convenience.

Baalazel

Zimbabwe is in the midst of a cholera epidemic. Millions have died in Darfur. China continues to poison its' population. And perhaps us as well. Billions on the planet live without sanitation, safe food, descent places to live. Tens of millions of children will grow up without access to education or medical treatment. Half a million Americans lost their jobs last month. A little math shows that more than one million of us just lost their health insurance. Most of us have moved out of the dangerous firetraps but the path back can be swift and unexpected. Let's not be too hard on the ancients.

Baal

mountainman

Dear Gerard,

Was the holy water used in "early christian churches" fresh? Were the early christians in Stark protected from the squallor by some special charisma? You have not yet brought into this discussion the lotus blossom of early christianity. Surely these early christians did not arrive from off-planet?

Best wishes,


Pete

Casper

the term "noble savage" is not to be confused with the general adjective "savage", or the root noun it derives from in English. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

gentleexit

The discussion seems to revolve around water. Peter Hall's "Cities in Civilization" gives great detail on Rome's water system.

And street cleaning ...

Clean streets but great waste ...

The same approach was taken elsewhere. Hence ...
Behind all this ...

Presumably all this water meant Pete's Christians were not only holy but clean.

DaBuster

gstafleu, I’m not sure I understand the point of your OP -- are your trying to say that Christianity DID NOT wreck havoc on pagan culture? Try to tell that to the pagans of Alexandria circa the late 4th century, who saw their temples destroyed in the Christian pogroms against pagans instigated by Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria.

As for the fragrance of their culture, I doubt that there are many who visit this forum who aren’t cognizant of the difference in sanitation standards between the 1st century and the 21st century, and who wouldn’t agree that for all but a privileged few, life was usually brutal, nasty, and short. However, this selfsame “fragrant” society produced many advances in philosophy and science during the times of pagan dominance, advances that appear to have largely dried up and disappeared about the time of Christian ascendancy. Thus regardless of whether you feel that the citizens of pagan Athens, Alexandria, or Rome didn’t meet your hygienic standards, it’s hard not to view their society as “vibrant” from an intellectual standpoint, particularly in light of what the next 1000 or so years had to offer in the lands dominated by Christianity.

Casper

This is what I was referring to as being a "myth of the noble savage".

Etruscan culture was not a victim of Christianity, for instance. You can't impose a double standard in terms of cultural conflict; it happened and still happens, for both better and worse. Even during the early third century, the Sarmatians were overcome by non-Christians. Subjugation is human nature.

The papyrus scroll was not superior to the cellulose codex, and did not fall out of favor as part of some conspiracy. Conventional plows were not replaced by wheeled and weighted plows because of some allusion to mediterranian plows being heretical.

gstafleu

Sure they did, once they became powerful and a state religion. But that was more the power elites making themselves felt than the religion itself (to the extent that one can differentiate between the two in the case of a state religion, of course).
Yes, but was that the doing of the (early) Christians or of the Roman empire (see e.g. Barbarians (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Terry Jones)?

Gerard Stafleu