DCHindley

Pulling up JW 5.495-7, the reference is to the Roman's inability to guard every known point of egress and exit available to residents of the city, and the decision to erect a wall around the entire city to prevent the inhabitants from foraging for or importing supplies.

Wars of the Jews 5:495-497 495 However, Titus did not think it fit for so great an army to lie entirely idle, and that yet it was in vain to fight with those who would be killed one by another; 496 he also showed them how impractical it was to cast up any more banks, for lack of materials, and to guard against the Jews coming out still more impractical; as also, that to surround the whole city with his army was not very easy, by reason of its size, and the difficulty of the location, 497 and on other accounts dangerous, upon the sallies the Jews might make out of the city; for although they might guard the known passages out of the place, yet would they, when they found themselves under the greatest distress, contrive secret passages out, as being well acquainted with all such places; and if any provisions were carried in by stealth, the siege would thereby be longer delayed.

Contriving secret passages out, it seems to me, is viewed as a potentiality, not an actuality.

In the case of JW 7.215, where the death of Judas son of Jair is noted, who it is explained was earlier referenced as commanding men made his escape from Jerusalem by means of an underground vault when Menachem's men were ambushed and ultimately destroyed, or whether this escape occurred in the Forest of Jarden.

Wars of the Jews 7:210-215 210 When Bassus had settled these affairs, he marched hastily to the forest of Jarden, as it is called; for he had heard that a great many of those who had fled from Jerusalem and Macherus formerly, were there gotten together. 211 When he was, therefore, come to the place, and understood that the former news was no mistake, he, in the first place, surrounded the whole place with his horsemen, that such of the Jews as had boldness enough to try to break through, might have no way possible for escaping, by reason of the location of these horsemen; and for the footmen, he ordered them to cut down the trees that were in the wood to where they were fled. 212 So the Jews were under a necessity of performing some glorious exploit, and of greatly exposing themselves in a battle, since they might, perhaps, thereby escape. So they made a general attack, and with a great shout fell upon those who surrounded them, 213 who received them with great courage; and so while the one side fought desperately, and the others would not yield, the fight was prolonged on that account. But the event of the battle did not answer the expectation of the assailants; 214 for so it happened that no more than twelve fell on the Roman side, with a few that were wounded; but not one of the Jews escaped out of this battle, but they were all killed, being in the whole not fewer in number than three thousand, 215 together with Judas, the son of Jairus, their general; concerning whom we have before spoken, that he had been a captain of a certain band at the siege of Jerusalem, and by going down into a certain vault underground had secretly made his escape.

That earlier reference appears to be:

Wars of the Jews 6:92-93 92 Now those who most signalised themselves, and fought most zealously in this battle of the Jewish side, were one Alexas and Gyphtheus, of John's party; and of Simon's party were Malachias, and Judas the son of Merto, and James the son of Sosas, the commander of the Idumeans; and of the Zealots, two brethren, Simon and Judas, the sons of Jairus. 93 And now Titus gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make him a ready passage for his army to come up;

Wars of the Jews 6:370 370 So now the last hope which supported the tyrants, and that crew of robbers who were with them, was in the caves and caverns underground; to where, if they could once flee, they did not expect to be searched for; but endeavoured, that, after the whole city should be destroyed, and the Romans gone away, they might come out again, and escape from them.

However, the one who is said to have escaped the Romans by jumping into a vault was "a certain crafty Jew" Castor:

Wars of the Jews 5:330 330 But Castor and his companions set the tower [i.e., the middle tower of the north part of the 2nd defensive wall of 5:317] on fire when it began to give way, and leaped through the flame into a hidden vault that was under it, which made the Romans further suppose that they were men of great courage, as having cast themselves into the fire.

Fun, fun.

DCH

Toto

This link works for me:

http://hebrewjudaic.as.nyu.edu/objec...schiffman.html

There is also lawrenceschiffman.com/

DCHindley

I ended up going to the url
http://lawrenceschiffman.com/?page_id=63

Seems the relevant articles for him would be:

“The Qumran Law of Testimony,” Revue de Qumran 8 (1975), pp. 603‑612.
“Communal Meals at Qumran,” Revue de Qumran 10 (1979), pp. 45‑56.
“Merkavah Speculation at Qumran: the 4Q Serekh Shirot ‘Olat Ha‑Shabbat,” Mystics, Philosophers, and Politi*cians, Essays in Jewish Intellectual History in Honor of Alexander Altmann, ed. J. Reinharz, D. Swetschinski, Duke University Press, 1982, pp. 15‑47
And there's more, but not all may be relevant.

Thanks Toto.

DCH

Anonymous_

D.C.,

Sounds like some interesting reading.

I think you are using a different translation of Josephus than the one used by Golb. He refers to Thackeray (=Loeb?), and quotes the words from 7.215 as "secretly escaped through some of the underground passages." There is presumably a difference between a "vault" and a "passage"; perhaps the various actual tunnels illustrated in the editorial you linked shed some light on the meaning, and on the potentiality you refer to which led the Romans to construct a new siege wall.

howardfredrics

Yes, Kenneth, I do think he'll win, and most likely on all or most of the charges.
What I've learned over the years is that some overzealous prosecutors like to throw the kitchen sink at defendants and hope that by virtue of the sheer number of charges, something will stick. Unfortunately, they're too often right.
I truly hope that the peace between you and your neighbor continues. No one needs such aggravation in their life.
-HF

DCHindley

Yeah, it is Whiston's English translation, which is what is on Bibleworks. I don't have enough cash to purchase those 10 Loeb volumes of Joe Cephus, and besides, being 5 mi south of the Center of the World, I'm too far from civilization to go to a good library at the drop of a hat.

JW 5:330 OI (those) PERI (about) TON (the) KASTORA (Castor) KAI (also) DIA (through) THS (the) FLOGOS (fire) EIS (into) THN (the) UP' (under) AUTW (them) KRUPTHN (krypt) ALLOMENOI (leaping)

JW 6:370 EQALPE (cherish) DE (but ) TOUS (the) TURANNOUS (tyrants) KAI (and) TO (the) SUN (along with) AUTOIS (them) LHSTRIKON (robbers) ELPIS (hope) ESCATH (last) PERI (around) TWN (to the) UPONOMWN (underground passages/sewers) EIS (into) OUS (they) KATAFEUGONTES (fleeing)

JW 7:215 ... KATA (according to) TINAS (certain) DIADUS (passage/route) TWN (by the) UPONOMWN (underground passages/sewers) ELAQEN (he escaped notice) APODRAS (thus escaping)

Looks like 6:370 is what Josephus was referring back to when he recounted that story in 7:215, not the story of Castor in 5:330.

Since I kinda doubt there were that many natural caverns through which they could escape, they must have used the sewer system. Seems that at least Judas son of Jair found a way out, as he was later killed in the battle of the forest of Jarden. Still, the way he told the story in 6:370, it sounded like they only intended to hide out until the Romans moved on and then hop out to safety.

As for the underground tunnels and sewers that archeologists have found under the temple mount, don't forget that the Templars extensively expanded the complexes they found already there, and likely built even more. Think of the so-called "Solomon's Stables" which were secure storage vaults built by the Crusaders.

DCH

Toto

I expect Golb's defense team to pick up on this:

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/02/23/robot-wars/

This software also has an IP address randomizer.

(Discussion thread on this in PD)

XKV8R

does the software also steal others' identities, impersonate living people, forge their names, and attempt to impugn their character, and send volleys of personalized emails to university faculties aimed at curtailing its victims' professional development?

because that would probably be illegal. at least i think. i'd have to check the ny legal records....hang on... yep. turns out the impersonation and identify theft stuff is illegal.

Toto

The CIA probably has a Professional version with those features.

manwithdream

If you want to read Golb's 111 page appeal, it is on the internet.

http://raphaelgolbtrialtranscripts.f...peal-brief.pdf

Kenneth Greifer