Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 01-14-2006, 11:32 AM

I dunno, I post something admittedly looking like EOG with a comment about does the Bible actually have the concept of supernatural in it and it gets whooshed to EOG! Any theologians here who know what the Bible says about the supernatural and transcendence?

general_koffi · 01-14-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

That's easy

If God creates everything that exists then either God is not something that exists or God created Himself. But nothing can create itself (can it?) so it must be the case that God is not one of the things that exists.

Yep, it's the Barber paradox...

ETA - I came up with a notion similar to this, but with about 2 or 3 additional pages justifying and expouding the hypothesis. I'm hoping the uni permits me to discuss it publicly, so I can share and test the arguments.

It doesn't make sense, dammit.

You can't start with a premise (God exists) and then move to a conclusion that directly invalidates that premise!

If God doesn't exist, then quite obviously we are not His creations. Why? Because something that doesn't exist cannot create anything! It cannot do anything!

What's wrong with the statement, "God created everything except Himself", huh?

Jeez, you theists... Sometimes I wonder what it is that you smoke.

Agnostic Theist · 01-14-2006, 12:02 PM

Just mind the generalisatios, Skippy.

No, it doesn't make sense. It's bullshit Cartesian apologetics.

I think the statement comes from a strawman of the Cosmological Argument that people like Descartes and a number of atheists and Cartesian sceptics/theists bring up.

God created all C-O-N-T-I-N-G-E-N-T things. God is not contingent, God exists as a necessary being.

There's the argument watered down to a monkey's nipple. It makes a lot more sense.

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder what it is that you smoke.

Roll-your-own uranium rods, of course.

Clivedurdle · 01-14-2006, 03:04 PM

Interesting that the Dominican guy in the Guardian does not mention contingency and necessary existence!

Infinite_Rules · 01-14-2006, 08:53 PM

Sounds like a pack of mumbo jumbo to me. I'll start considering this argument seriously just as soon as someone explains to me what "outside the order of beings" means.

Mickey · 01-15-2006, 09:02 AM

IMO when Aquinas produces theological arguments to support belief in god,they are just that.He is just saying,"look it is reasonable to believe in god for all these reasons,but we cannot prove it ,because god is beyond our understanding."

It is reasonable to suggest that we cannot be sure that what we are equipped to perceive is all that there may be.We cannot rule out something which is beyond our understanding precisely for that reason.

Perhaps for those believers who do not just accept what they are told by religious authority,the very "unfalsifiability" of belief in god is the attraction.
Uncertainty is at the core of scientific thinking,but many people find it impossible to live without some certainty,and find irrational concepts necessary.

Mickey

mikem · 01-15-2006, 09:08 AM

It has to do with the definition of EXISTS, which I think has to do with "standing out from" or EX - ISTING. The point is that God is not like any other thing. St Paul quotes a pagan philisopher in Acts 17: "in him we move and breathe and have our being.."

The God of the Bible is very much a being however. Or possibly three..

Gawen · 01-15-2006, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic Theist

God created all C-O-N-T-I-N-G-E-N-T things. God is not contingent, God exists as a necessary being.

If you are agnostic, how do you 'know' this?

Gawen · 01-15-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

It is reasonable to suggest that we cannot be sure that what we are equipped to perceive is all that there may be. We cannot rule out something which is beyond our understanding precisely for that reason.

I can agree with that. But can we heap attributes upon something that is beyond our understanding? Can we designate causes and effects from something we can know nothing about? Can we do all the above for something that has no known evidence or proof of its existence?

Agnostic Theist · 01-15-2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

If you are agnostic, how do you 'know' this?

1. I don't

2. I was depicting the Aquinastic position

3. I could go either way, but the Leibnizian concept generates more fruitful discussion than the Cartesian concept.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-14-2006, 11:32 AM	#11
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I dunno, I post something admittedly looking like EOG with a comment about does the Bible actually have the concept of supernatural in it and it gets whooshed to EOG! Any theologians here who know what the Bible says about the supernatural and transcendence?

01-14-2006, 03:04 PM	#14
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Interesting that the Dominican guy in the Guardian does not mention contingency and necessary existence!

01-14-2006, 08:53 PM	#15
Infinite_Rules Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 225	Sounds like a pack of mumbo jumbo to me. I'll start considering this argument seriously just as soon as someone explains to me what "outside the order of beings" means.

01-15-2006, 09:02 AM	#16
Mickey Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Stoke On Trent England Posts: 94	IMO when Aquinas produces theological arguments to support belief in god,they are just that.He is just saying,"look it is reasonable to believe in god for all these reasons,but we cannot prove it ,because god is beyond our understanding." It is reasonable to suggest that we cannot be sure that what we are equipped to perceive is all that there may be.We cannot rule out something which is beyond our understanding precisely for that reason. Perhaps for those believers who do not just accept what they are told by religious authority,the very "unfalsifiability" of belief in god is the attraction. Uncertainty is at the core of scientific thinking,but many people find it impossible to live without some certainty,and find irrational concepts necessary. Mickey

01-15-2006, 09:08 AM	#17
mikem Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK Posts: 278	It has to do with the definition of EXISTS, which I think has to do with "standing out from" or EX - ISTING. The point is that God is not like any other thing. St Paul quotes a pagan philisopher in Acts 17: "in him we move and breathe and have our being.." The God of the Bible is very much a being however. Or possibly three..

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.