Asha'man

Oh my, Jason has actually posted a chronology!

I didn't think he had it in him.

Anyone want to start tearing it apart?

Kosh

There isn't anything to tear apart. All he's done is collate the inconsistencies together to make them more obvious!

Thanks, Jason! <snicker>

Infidelettante

Jason's post
The post-resurrection accounts have been summarized. Are they reconcilable? Are they errant? Well, let’s see if one could put together a single, congruent account using ALL of the relevant details. If I can, then Sean will have to show how my sequence of events, based on the biblical record, is flawed. Here goes.

1) Matthew 28:2 - There had been a great earthquake and an angel of the Lord had descended and rolled back the stone and sat on it.

The women were present at the tomb when the earthquake happened according to Matt. 28: 1 and witnessed the removal of the stone. Jason gives Matt. 28:1 and Matt. 28: 2 out of sequence here because he must be able to have the women find the stone moved when they arrive as it says in Mark 16:4 See red below.

2) Matthew 28:3 and 4 - The angel’s countenance was like lightning and his face like snow and the guards shook and fell to the ground as dead.


3) John 20:1-2 - Mary M. came to the tomb while it was still dark and saw the stone rolled away. She ran and came to Peter and one other disciple and told them the news.

In John 20:2 Mary M. runs and tells Peter the news but in Mark 16:8 the women don’t tell anyone. “neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.” And what news did Mary bring to Peter in John 20:2? Jason doesn’t tell us that Mary told Simon Peter and the other disciple only that the body was missing and they didn’t know where it was. We would not know this if we were to trust Jason’s paraphrasing. See blue below.


4) Matthew 28:1 - As the day was dawning, Mary M. and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

4) Mark 16:1 - Mary M., Mary, and Salome bought spices and came to the tomb.

5) Mark 16:2-4 - Very early in the morning, after the sun had risen, they came to the tomb.

Jason must play with the sequence of verses to make his account work. Mark 16: 4 says “And when they looked they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.” It is verse 4 that says the stone was already moved when they arrived. Not verses 5-7. See red below

5) Luke 24:1-3 - Very early in the morning, they and certain other women came to the tomb with spices and found it empty.

6) Matthew 28:5-7 - The angel speaks, tells the women not to be afraid, and tells them Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead. The angel also tells them to tell the disciples that He is risen and would meet them in Galilee.

6) Mark 16:5-7 - They found the stone rolled away, enter the tomb and see a man with a white robe (an angel) sitting in the tomb. He tells them that Jesus has risen and that He would meet them in Galilee.

Jason is not quoting scripture because it won’t allow him to twist them. The women find the tomb open in verse 4 not verses 5-7.

6) Luke 24:4-8 - The women went in the tomb and found two men in clothes that gleamed like lightening (angels). One spoke and told them that Jesus had risen.


7) Mark 16:8 - They fled from the tomb; amazed and fearful and said nothing about the experience.

In Jason’s sequence the women don’t tell any one, “Mark 16:8 “…neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.” after they have already told Peter, John 20:2 “Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter…and saith…They have taken the Lord out of the sepulcher and we know not where they laid him.” Jason doesn’t quote the verses which should be the first clue he’s trying to pull a fast one.

8) Matthew 28:8 - The women left with joy and fear and ran.

JT

Jack the Bodiless

I note that Jason has interleaved verses from the four gospels, but he still hasn't condensed them into a single narrative: he's left a lot of confusing repetition, making it hard to follow the timeline of events.

...Maybe because the events don't actually fit a coherent timeline?

Here's my attempt at condensing Jason's account into a sequence of events (I've snipped a few extraneous details, and I haven't added any additional material from the gospels themselves):

1. At dawn, the two Marys and Salome (and others?) go to the tomb.

2. They find that an angel has rolled the stone back, he tells them that Jesus is risen (there is some confusion about whether the angel is encountered outside or inside the tomb).

3. The women leave, then run into Jesus himself. He talks to them.

4. Various women go to tell the disciples, but they are skeptical.

5. Peter (and another disciple) run to the tomb and find it empty, with the stone rolled back.

6. Mary M. returns to the tomb and weeps outside it for no apparent reason. Angels reappear and talk to her, but she has apparently suffered amnesia: she is concerned about the missing body, despite having already heard that Jesus is risen. Jesus appears, but she takes awhile to recognize him despite having met him earlier that morning (something is wrong here...)

7. Jesus appears to the disciples (in Jerusalem?) and talks to them.

8. Jesus appears to Thomas, who missed the first appearance.

9. The disciples go to Galilee and meet Jesus there (again?).

10. Jesus hung around for 40 days, then ascended.

...So even Jason's version is errant.

moorezw

How in the world does he change the order of Matthew 28 with a straight face?

rightshu

Easy -- he's the Right Reverend Admiral Jason Gastrich, BSc, MSc, DVM, ThD, PhD, MD, JD, Esq, US Navy (Ret). If the bible happened to put things in the wrong order, well, our boy the Doctor will just fix it right up there!

You should read his latest thread in [talk.origins|alt.atheism|free.christians]. The guy's stopped using his phony doctor title, so he acts like he's done the world a favor.

He's insane, I think. And he still hasn't harmonized the four accounts; he's only shuffled the location of the arguments. The most amazing part is that, unless I missed its insertion into the chronology, he completely ignores John 20:3-10 as if the passage didn't exist.

I wrote a complete chronology based on his work, but using the actual bible verses, in talk.origins. If anyone's interested in googling for it, the message ID is Xns9490D3DEBA107rightshubohrcoxnet@68.12.19.6.

DetectedDestiny

Matthew 28:2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.

Matthew 28:3 – 4 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

John 20:1 – 2 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!”

Matthew 28:1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. (again?)

Mark 16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body.

Mark 16:2 – 4 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?" (Mary M knew the stone was rolled away?) But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.

Luke 24:1 – 3 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

Matthew 28:5 – 7 The angel (who had rolled the stone away and whom Mary M apparantly did not see the first time she went there) said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you.”

Mark 16:5 – 7 As they entered the tomb, (past the angel sitting on the stone outside) they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed. "Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, `He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

Luke 24:4 – 8 While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here. The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again." 8Then they remembered his words.

Mark 16:8 8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

Matthew 28:8 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples.

(The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20. (NIV quote) so I'll put these verses between brackets (DD))

(Mark 16:9 – 11 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.)

Matthew 28:9 – 10 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee.”

Luke 24:9 – 11 (encounter with Jesus is omissioned) When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.

Luke 24:12 Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened. (“the other disciple” is omissioned)

John 20:3 – 10 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) Then the disciples went back to their homes,…

John 20:11 – 17 …but Mary (Magdalene) stood outside the tomb crying. (after going to the tomb, having seen the stone rolled away, returning to inform Simon Peter and “the other disciple”, going back to the tomb with the other women, seeing the angels and returning to Jerusalem again (this time to tell the Eleven and all the others) and AGAIN returning to the tomb (“behind Simon Peter and the other disciple”)) As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot. They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?" "They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." (said after the sighting of the angels in Matthew, Mark and Luke) At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, (after seeing Jesus when returning to Jerusalem with the other women) but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him." Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”

(Mark 16:12 – 13 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. These returned and reported it to the rest.)

Luke 24:13 – 32 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them but they were kept from recognizing him. He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?" They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?" "What things?" he asked. "About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see." He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening.” When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"

Luke 24:33 – 35 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." (when? omissioned in all gospels?) Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

John 20:18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

(Mark 16:14 – 18 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons. They will pick up snakes with their hands.”)

Luke 24:36 – 49 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised.”

Acts 1:4 – 5 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

John 20:19 – 25 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven.” Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

John 20:26 – 29 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here.” Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed.”

*Matthew 28:11 – 15* While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, "You are to say, `His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

John 20:30 – 31 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 21:1 – 24 Afterward Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Tiberias. It happened this way: Simon Peter, Thomas (called Didymus), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples were together. "I'm going out to fish," Simon Peter told them, and they said, "We'll go with you." So they went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing. Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, "Friends, haven't you any fish?" "No," they answered. He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish. Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, "It is the Lord," he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water. The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards. When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread. Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught." Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead. When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things.” Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted" Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!" Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?" Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die. This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

Matthew 28:16 – 17 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, (they were there already?) to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him.

Matthew 28:18 – 20 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Acts 1:1 – 3 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

(Mark 16:19 – 20 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.)

Luke 24:50 – 53 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.


DD comments:
These are obervations i made, mainly about Mary M. How many times did she go to the tomb, see angels and/or Jesus?
These are observations i made about the location of the disciples. Were they ordered to stay in Jerusalem until the Pentacost (Luke), or were they ordered to go to Galilee (Matthew and John)?
I made these colorizations because i suspect JG to argue that the disciples only had to stay in Jerusalem until Jesus had blown the Holy Spirit on them, but the parts i colored clearly show that cannot be the case.

-edited to fix some spelling and ubb code errors-

Bumble Bee Tuna

Holy shit, reversing the order of a few consecutive passages, that is the most creative deception I have ever seen.

mallet 'n spike

Amos- you've got to be kidding- this Jungian/New Age psycobable you engage in is no more believable than Gastrich's no show defense. The NT discontinuity in the Gospels reguarding the personages who went to the tomb are being delt with on a literal basis in the debate- who was and who wasn't there and what was witnessed by them. If this is your attempt at apologetics it misses the mark if I understand the parameters of the debate.-mallet 'n spike

Asha'man

Sean's next post has been up for almost a week, and no comments from the gallery yet?

Is this debate so one-sided that people have lost interest?