avi

Thank you snm, for your reply, well done.

Here's a summary then:
The OP addressed a brief lecture by Bart Ehrman. I noted a discrepancy between this noted scholar's modus operandi and his conclusion (shared with spin, among others), that Paul's writing preceded Mark's.

I submitted a link to the earlier thread, focused on this very question, and quoted spin, again inquiring about evidence. I then resubmitted the same quote from Codex Sinaiticus, originally offered by spin, Psalm 110.1 aka 109.1.

I noted, again, that instead of writing "kyrios" "kyriou", the famous codex states "ks" "ko". Why?
Why do the scribes abbreviate "lord" in this fashion?

One explanation, quite probably the more accurate reply, is that explained by show_no_mercy, who corrected my own, amateurish suggestion, below, by indicating that the Jews of Alexandria who created the Septuagint, indeed wrote "kyrios" "kyriou" in the original version of the Septuagint, not "theos" "kyriou" in harmony with the masoretic text of ancient times, which has "Yahweh" "Adonai". Show_no_mercy explained that the Jews who created the Septuagint were forbidden to speak the name of Yahweh, hence, wrote "kyrios" instead of "theos", in translating "Yahweh".

I doubt this explanation, for several reasons.

First, those scholars in Alexandria, 2300 years ago, were translating WRITTEN documents, not relying upon oral tradition. We believe this to be the case based upon the close proximity of the current masoretic text with the oldest extant copies from DSS. It would be improbable, though technically possible, one supposes, for the group of 70 to have MEMORIZED the whole text, so as to obviate the need for a written hebrew template.

Secondly, they were under no such restriction, writing in Greek, for it is NOT forbidden to speak the word "theos", or any other assemblage of alien phonemes.

Thirdly, this suggestion does not explain why scribes wrote "ks" "ko".

Finally, I suppose, without evidence, i.e. on faith, that this prohibition against speaking the name "yahweh" is a MODERN restriction, which could well have resulted from some regulation imposed by either the Romans, or by Constantine and the subsequent Christians. Does anyone have written evidence predating the common era, of such a restriction on saying the name "yahweh"?

My suggestion, which may be completely erroneous, is that Codex Sinaiticus was written about the time of Lord Constantine, ruler supreme of the Roman Empire, and dictator extraordinaire--a man ruthless, and determined to regulate Christianity as he saw fit. Such regulation, in my view, included REWRITING many existing works, whenever, or wherever, there appeared any contradiction to the trinitarian myth.

My assumption then is that this deformation of the hebrew text, writing "ks" and "ko" instead of "theos" "ko", has its origin post-Constantine, not in the original Septuagint.

It is with chagrin, that I have read from snm's excellent rejoinder, that there exists no copy of Psalm 110.1 from DSS. Pity, then the question will remain unanswered....

avi

show_no_mercy

You're correct that the text has "Yahweh" and "adoni", but Psalm 110 never writes the word "god" [i.e. el or elohim] in Hebrew. YHWH does not mean "god", any more than Bob means "god". It is a proper name (though it could have some meaning if we knew how to pronounce it).

El or Elohim = God or Θεος
Adoni or Adonai = Lord or Κυριος
YHWH = YHWH

The Jews who translated the LXX were following the tradition of the time of substituting the Sacred Name YHWH with either "god" or "lord".

avi

So, the issue here now, is this: TODAY, modern Jews believe that ...xyz, whatever, but, how do we know what those 70+ Jews in Alexandria believed, taught, thought, and argued, back in the day?

All of the modern conventions in Judaism are suspect as derivatives of Christian intervention. It is perhaps not so easy for us to realize the incredible stress and strain placed upon Jews and upon Judaism 2000 years ago, first by the Romans, then, after Constantine, by the Christians. So, for example, this notion of not saying the word Yahweh, why should we not conclude that this prohibition is a result of some sort of DIKTAT from the holy roman emperor of the 6th century?

I am waiting for the EVIDENCE that the 70 Alexandrian Jews who created the Septuagint, deliberately ALTERED the text, in a way that, purely by coincidence just happens to conform with trinitarian doctrine, a philosophy alien to Judaism, and hostile to it, which appeared on the scene 400-500 years AFTER they created the Septuagint.

Absent such evidence, I am persuaded, in harmony with the documented bestiality of Constantine, that those 70 Jews are much maligned today, falsely, and without justification, for I believe, sans evidence, that they would certainly have faithfully translated Yahweh as Theos, since that is what Yahweh is. Yahweh is not some kind of human "lord". Yahweh is GOD. Humans are mere "adonai", Yahweh is WAY WAY above that lowly posture. Those 70 scholars were brilliant men who knew Greek perfectly, and there is almost no possibility, in my opinion, that they would have introduced such a clumsy and inept translation of the Masoretic text. I believe that we are here witnessing the heavy hand of Lord Constantine, not the nimble fingers of the 70 Jewish scholars.

avi

Toto

The restriction on speaking the name of YHWH is based on the Biblical prohibition against taking the name of god in vain. By the first century of the common era, there is evidence of restrictions on saying the name of God outside of the Temple:

Tetragrammaton#In_ancient_Judaism

There is more there.

Note that written documents of the era were aids to recitation. Anything written would be read aloud.

The absolute prohibition against speaking the name of god is a modern practice, but not without ancient roots.

avi

Thank you very much, for your input, ALWAYS welcome.



I disagree, however, with your two points.

First, while reading aloud may well have been the conduct 2200 years ago, reading the word "theos" outloud, among Greeks, whether jews or non-jews, is certainly not going to be considered an affront, to anyone.

Secondly, I am sorry, but I do not accept modern practice as a guide to ancient customs, or beliefs. Without evidence from ancient times, two hundred years BEFORE Josephus or Philo, before the Roman invasion of Jerusalem, before the persecution of the Jews, I cannot accept the notion that it is more likely that a group of bilingual Greek/Hebrew scholars, living in Alexandria, speaking Greek as their native language, would have changed the original text from Yahweh/Adonai to the Adonai/Adonai equivalent in Greek, i.e. Kurios/kurio. Uttering "theos" would have elicited fear neither in their hearts, nor in their quills.

Perhaps, as is so often the case, I am wrong in my assessment, and those 70+ scholars really did write Ks/Ko, as the text of Psalm 110.1 (aka 109.1) reads in Codex Sinaiticus.

I just find it strange that 70 Jewish scholars would anticipate by 500 years the Constantinian christian scribal convention of referring to God and Jesus as Ks/Ko, in order to linguistically validate trinitarian doctrine.

avi

show_no_mercy

Again, YHWH does not mean "god". "God" in Hebrew is ELHYM, not YHWH.

avi

Thank you show_no_mercy.

I apologize for continuing to badger you on this issue.

a bit further on, in the same article:
If this article is correct, in terms of the usage 2200 years ago, then my question remains this:

Regarding the TEXT, not the spoken sounds, which Greek word best translates these two names:

Jupiter
Yahweh

I would translate both as theos. I believe that the authors of septuagint would have similarly written theos to translate yahweh. Kurios is inadequate for Jupiter, are we then to imagine that the Greek speaking, Jewish translators who wrote the septuagint had more respect for pagan gods, than their own?

I would argue that Yahweh was as much an indication of "God", as "Jupiter", and that the generic term for such entities, in the Greek speaking world of 2200 years ago, was THEOS, not kurios.

I have no idea when Elohim replaced Yahweh, or if both still exist, or whether the two are synonyms. The wikipedia article seems to me to suggest that the two words were used to represent the same notion, (a single deity ruling Israel) expressed differently by two different groups of Jews. I rely upon the Hebrew TEXT, found at the web site I gave earlier, which refers to Yahweh, not Elohim. I assume, perhaps in error, that the ancient Hebrew text, employed by the 70 scholars included Yahweh. Maybe I am wrong, and they really did translate Yahweh as Ks, nomina sacra to designate Jesus.

avi

show_no_mercy

The issue isn't translation. "Theos" is a title, not a translation of either name. On the other hand, "theos" is a correct literal translation of "el", as El was simply the generic Canaanite term for "god" (el'him would literally be plural, but is also used as a singular). Thus you end up with terms like Elyon (most high god), El Shaddai (god of the mountains), names like "Daniel" (my judge is god), Elijah (YHWH is my god), Nathaniel (gift of god), etc.

There was already a firmly established tradition in Judaism of equating the non-titular "the lord" with YHWH. This is most evident in Ezekiel, where he consistently writes "the lord god" (i.e. adonai YHWH). Adonai is literally plural like elohim, but this plural was always used to refer to YHWH. The singular would be "adoni". In the LXX version of Ezekiel this was shortened to just "the lord" or the adonai was phoneticised into Greek.

Another example of "lord" being a designator for YHWH off the top of my head is Isaiah 7:14.

In the LXX, we're dealing with transposing Jewish traditions and culture into Greek language, not Greek culture being transposed to Jewish traditions.

It was Jewish tradition that substituted the non-titular "the lord" with YHWH. This tradition was carried over into the LXX, since the translators were (supposedly) Jews.

avi

Thank you, AGAIN, show_no_mercy, for a lucid, and erudite comment, very informative, and helpful.

Two questions:

1. adonai (or adoni, singular), was it applied, by Jews, themselves, in ancient times, to refer to humans of lofty stature within society, or, alternatively, was adonai (adoni) a word reserved exclusively for use in combination with "el" or any other word, to indicate "GOD"?

2. That's fine, snm, if we were analyzing some Greek document translated into Hebrew....I would understand if Jupiter were translated as adonai Jupiter, not el Jupiter.

But, that's not our situation, is it?

We are not discussing, I think, whether or not kyrios is an accurate translation of adonai. We agree that it is.

The question is whether these native Greek speakers would have translated the idea of God, i.e. "EL", as represented by Yahweh (as it appears in the TEXT of Psalms 110:1), in Greek, as theos, or kyrios.

In Greek language terms, there are two choices for assignment of anyone of significance in society:

Assignment to the category of God;

or

Assignment to the category of lord, a high ranking, non-divine, human status.

If you were translating this passage today, into Greek, would you write kyrios/kyriou, or theos/kyriou ???
N.B. there are NO names employed, either way....Only titles.

n.b. (2) there is only the masoretic text, which I supplied a few days back....text which shows yahweh, not el, not adonai, not elohim.

avi

show_no_mercy

It's a bit tricky without the vowel points, but "adoni" means "my lord" and "adonai" means "my lords". It's sort of like the royal "we" that a king or queen uses in comedies. "My lords" was used exclusively for the god of the Jews, similar to "elohim" (which is also grammatically plural but might reference a single god - see Psalm 82 for both uses in one sentence). The singular adoni was used for human beings, whereas the "plural" adonai was used as a circumlocution for speaking the vowels to YHWH.

But it wasn't pagan Greeks who translated the LXX. They were supposedly bilingual Jews who knew both Hebrew and Greek. It's simply Jewish tradition written in Greek language, not Greek tradition written in Greek language.

Again, the tradition among Jews was using the circumlocution of "the lord" instead of speaking YHWH out loud. They simply carried this tradition over into Greek when Greek literate Jews translated the Torah.

I would translate Psalm 110 with theos/kyrios to avoid confusion - but then again, I'm not a bilingual Jew living 2,200 years ago. Modern Jews use the circumlocution of "Hashem" (i.e. the name) in every day speech when talking about YHWH.