Malachi151

Catholic doctrine states that the "virgin Mary" never had a child herself and remained a virgin her whole life.

The Catholics also acknowledge that according to the story of the birth of Jesus Mary would have been 12 years old when she gave birth to Jesus.

Jesus is said to have had more than 4 siblings, I'm not sure how many he supposedly had in total).

Catholics explain this by saying that Jospeh had these children from a prior marriage.

The New Testament also says that to mary someone who has divorced in adultry, so we must then assume that Joseph's previous wife died (according to this reading).

In order for Joseph to have had 5 or more children before he married Mary he must have been fairly old, so let's assume that puts Joseph around 35 at least, if not 40+.

So basically, the Bible says (according to the Catholics) that a 35-40 year old man was marrying a 13 year old! (she was going to be 13 when they got married) Haha, nice :devil3:

Of course, where were all these children during their trip to be counted in the census? Had they abondoned them?

If they were able to travel without Josephs children, then the children must have been old enough to leave with someone else, but then if they left them with someone else they would have been violating the census.

RUmike

There is no biblical evidence to support such a belief. Are you sure Catholics believe this? Not that I doubt Catholics would believe something for which there is no evidence, I just mean I've never heard that before. As far as I knew, the "12 years old" thing comes from a much later gospel that obviously was not accepted into the canon (I forget which, though).

According to GMark, at least 6 (4 brothers and an unnamed number of "sisters", meaning at least 2).

I believe there is another position acceptable to Catholics, and that is the children are cousins (e.g. Elizabeth's children, or some other relative of Mary). Realistically, there is virtually nothing in the texts to support either belief.

Hmm. I don't see why Joseph couldn't have started having kids at 20 and 1 a year for 5 years, making him 25. But regardless, an old person marrying a young person wasn't so uncommon in antiquity. Girls generally got married around that age, and usually to much older men.

MikePhil

Yeah the idea of an older man marry an younger woman that has a bad conotation (and its actually ilegal in many countries) doesnt apply here like RUMike said and well, it was kinda of a common thing. And what are your bases to say "The Catholics also acknowledge that according to the story of the birth of Jesus Mary would have been 12 years old when she gave birth to Jesus.".. never heard a Catholic claiming this.

Toto

Not just Catholics, but most people assume that Mary would have been around 12-13, the usual age for young women to be betrothed in the ancient world. Their husbands were often older.

I don't think that Catholics have a problem with assuming that Jesus' siblings were older half-brothers and sisters from Joseph's previous marriage, and that they went along to be counted in the census. I recall a description of some art work that had brother James leading the donkey carrying his pregnant step-mother Mary into the inn.

Imagination, it's just wonderful.

purple_kathryn

Wouldn't you be pissed off if you bought a child bride who claimed to be knocked up by god and that you never had the chance to have sex with?

I bet Joseph built a lot of shelves

Clivedurdle

And according to Da Vinci Mary was incredibly beautiful!

(Is there an equivalent to Godwin's Law for invoking Da Vinci?)

Chili

Mary was from Nazareth where days are not counted and she was exactly as old as Jesus who was exactly as old as Joseph. Mary was betrothed to Joseph from birth (man is basically good) when she was taken from Joseph to be his richess in heaven through the bodily assumption of Mary.

Malachi151

The Catholics are actually the ones that derived the age of Mary from scripture based on a knowledge of the customs of the Jewish culture that she was living in.

Girls were married off at age 13 in that culture, and they went to the temple prior to that to be in waiting. Mary was in this waiting period when "the Holy Ghost came upon her"

This means she would have to have been 12.

Chili

They must have been theologians because it sure does not jive with some of their art and icons. Just look at the Pieta and see the exact same body size between Mary and Jesus, which really is the message there. I have seen a "Journey to Bethlehem" painting wherein Mary and Joseph were about the same age. Interesting here was that Mary was in charge of this journey while Joseph was as much dragging his ass behind the donkey on which Mary was enthroned.

I actually think that Mary never was in the temple, ever, not even once, to keep her sinless since it was she who provoked the temple ruckus in the mind of Jesus. Magdalene, yes, but not Mary. Similar, Virgilia never left Rome where she did her work in good faith until the 'battle of Corioli' (Coriolanus).

The "waiting in the temple" as you suggest is to keep her sinless but that is not the common area of the synagogue. In this sense was it the large temple of little Nazareth and that was the equivalent of Rome as the home of Virgilia in Coriolanus.

But yes, if people ask questions answers must be given without collapsing the mystery of faith.

xaxxat

Hey, Chili... Were Mary's parents sinless too? How about her whole family line? Otherwise, wouldn't she be tainted?