Malachi151

Well indeed, Christian theology *IS* Greek Neoplatonism.

Clivedurdle

We are beginning to list a whole set of assumptions that maybe they are not originally xian have definitely been digested and re issued by representatives of xianity and are if not at least misleading, are plain wrong!

(If all these xian thinkers had such diverse views is there something that can legitimately be labelled xian - I think there is!).

Are there any tricks to spot xian assumptions?

mountainman

I will accept seventeen hundred years only.
Feel free to provide a relevant citation to
the contrary.



Pete Brown

Clivedurdle

Off topic (but maybe not!)! I was assuming using the catholic view of history that xianity was in Britain by the two to three hundreds but

http://www.dartfordarchive.org.uk/ea...ligion_c.shtml

http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/...nd_beliefs.htm

A google search seems to show that there is not much evidence of xianity in Britain before the 300's and the reason for this was because it was a persecuted religion.

My immediate reaction is that even trained archaeologists have not looked at the evidence properly because of xian assumptions and thinking!

Malachi151

Clivedurdle: Good point. I was listing scientific assumptions that became a part of Christianity and still linger today (many have already been cast to the wayside, such as the earth being the center of the universe), but yes there are many aspects of history and cultural studies that are affected by Christianity too. Just look at how much of our history is focused on the Middle Eastern origins of culture, yet we are finding evidence for earlier origins in areas of Asia.

There is also the common MIS-perception of Greek culture and Greek religion. I know that most people think Greek religion was about Zeus sitting up on top of Mt. Olympus reigning down lightening bolts, and other elements of "Greek mythology", which were almost universally rejected by the Greeks by the 3rd century BCE. Christians, of course, have always hated the pre-Christian Greeks (even though they did adopt of a lot to their views into their system) and have taken great care these past 1,900 years to belittle Greek accomplishments and thought.

We also have this fable about the "barbarian destruction of Rome", which is such a load of crap, but which is strongly promoted by the Christians who don't want to take the blame for their hand in the downfall of civilization.

There is also a widespread belief, even among atheists, that the "belief in God" is universal, i.e. that all cultures have historically believed in a god or gods.

mikem

Was it Nietzche who described Christianity as "Platonism for the masses?

He did have a great deal to say throughout his writings about how Christianity inverted more ancient Greek ideals derived from Homer - things like self dependence, courage, recognising and accepting one's feelings, being a strong individual so that you can do good to others, not out of a sense of guilt, but out of one's own vitality.

N. described christianity as based on a slave morality, the huddling together of the masses as protection against the strong individual.

Neo Platonism gave to Christianity it's stong dualistic features, mainly through Augustine I think. This world is just a fleeting shadow, not real, without substance. The real world was the realm inhabited by God.

I think it is probably this dualistic mindset which is characteristic of Christianity, although not exclusive to it. It shows itself in lots of ways - in how even non believers regard humans as profoundly unique. I liked the example of Jane Goodall noted above. In society as a whole though, we treat other animals as being pretty much there for our convenience (shades of Genesis).

Spiritualism - many , many people, who would not subscribe to the other tenets of Christianity, believe we have a soul that is going to that other Platonic realm when we die.

One of the reasons why evolution is still strongly resisted, even by those who are not Chrisitians, is because there is no room in an evolutionary world for one species to have a special ontological status. Evolution is the great leveller - all physical organisms evolved from the same elemental materials. Even liberal Christians, who say they accept evolution, have to find room for God somewhere to infuse mankind with something special.

Apologies if this post is a bit loose, I'm just jotting things as they come to me. My main point is that it is a dualistic mindset that is the bedrock of Christianity, and via Chrisitianity into a partly secularised Western culture.

Johann_Kaspar

Very good question. I am the one here who is repeating that most people are thinking like xians. To think like a xian is for instance:
- to think that the historicity "Jesus" or its mythicity is important;
- to think that the canonical gospels were written in Greek;
- to think that they were written by one "author" once;
- to forget about all non-canonical gospels;
- to project modern ideas into the 8-9th centuries auc;
- not to be able to think like a Jew in Eretz Israel in the 8-9th centuries auc;
- to think that a mere hypothesis is the truth;
- to have answers instead of questions...

Another example is the hair splitting about "strong" and "weak" atheism, typical of a xian way of thinking (for instance jesuitism) going way back to all those quarrels about xian trinity at the root of that religion. To have no roots but xian roots, because some are immerged in a xian religious society.

Johann_Kaspar

Why am I not surprised that you can't find a single type of thought among all of them (and many more)

Peter Kirby

Perhaps because the attempt to tie up these various men in a single noetic straightjacket is misguided. They came from different starting points; they processed information differently; they came to different conclusions. It's a simple and petty mindset that tries to pin down "the Christian mode of thought", as if there were just one such possible creature.

Like it or not, Christian thought is richer and more varied than most intellectual traditions, and resists neat classification as a whole. One might more easily pigeonhole American literature in respect of its mode of writing (which is to say, not easily at all).

The most embarrassing part comes in when thinking like a Christian becomes an issue of avoiding such. An epistle of the NT admonishes, when furnishing a rational defense, to do so with gentleness and respect. Perhaps a Christian mode of thought is to approach discourse with respect. Certainly we should not avoid such just because it is Christian.

kind regards,
Peter Kirby

Malachi151

Peter I have to disagree. Yeah, when you get into specifics maybe. Yeah, when you talk about the beliefs of early church fathers and apologists, maybe, but we are talking about general influences that have come down to us today.

There are underlying assumptions in Western thought. If not from Christianity, where did they come from?

Your discussion is like arguing about whether or not we can claim that Communism had an influence on Russia by saying that there is a mode of Communistic thought that became endemic in the culture. My position would be yes, we can say that there a mode of Communistic thought that has influenced Russian thought. Your position would seem to point out the differences in ideas held by Mark, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Kautsky, the Mencheviks, etc., and claim that no such "Communist thought" exists.

Was there variety in Christian thought, of course. Was there variety in Greek philosophy? Of course. That doesn't mean that we don't still find overriding influences on the culture stemming from these systems.

To restate my positions, I think that following view pervade Western culture because of our Christian heritage:

1) Mind-body duality
2) The exclusivity of life on Earth
3) The primacy of man
4) Teleological view of existence (all things happen for a reason, function follows design)
5) Human alone have reason, emotions, feelings, consciousness
6) Belief in God is original and fundamental to all humans
7) "Life after death"
8) Humans alone suffer and have challenges and meaning in their lives
9) The collapse of Roman civilization was caused by the degeneration of Roman society and barbarians, Christians had nothing to do with it, or perhaps saved it from being worse.

I think that all of these things can be said to have come down to modern Western Civilization from Christian culture, and are a part of "the Christian mentality".