ChristMyth

Ok Dr. I'm willing to do your homework for you. Let's look at the texts in question, but let's look at them one at a time, as if they were the only texts available to us and none of the others existed at the time of reading: (i.e. look at Matthew as if Matthew were the only gospel in the bible). First Matthew:

What are the facts in this passage?
1. It was dawn
2. Only two women went to the tomb (Mary Magdalene and the other Mary(?)
3. There was a violent earthquake
4. An angel of the Lord came down from heaven, rolled back the stone, and then sat upon it
5. The guards saw the angel and fainted
6. Angel: "Be not afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples, "He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee There you will see him. Now I have told you."
7. Women hurry away, afraid yet filled with joy.
8. Jesus meets them and is worshiped. Restates angels command to go and tell disciples
9. Guards make up story and get paid.
10. Disciples go to Galilee, to mountain where Jesus told them to go. Worship Jesus and receive Great Commission.

ChristMyth

Now how about Mark

Facts of this passage:
1. Only three women visit the tomb (Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome)
2. It was just before sunrise.
3. They question each other as to who will roll the stone away.
4. Stone has already been rolled away when they arrive.
5. All three enter tomb to find a young man dressed in white robe sitting inside the tomb
6. Young Man: "Don't be alarmed. You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they had laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, "He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you."
7. The women fled and told nothing.
Mark 16:9-20 are unreliable and probably later additions to the text, so I will omit them from the discussion

Amaleq13

Not that you've been able to show.

The passage you quote clearly describes their reaction to the assurance of the angel as one of joy. You think she is just in a random manic phase unrelated to the news she just received that Jesus is not really dead?

The fear and joy are, contrary to your bizarre objection, quite clearly descriptions of their reaction to the angel's assurance.

Why do you imagine they departed with fear and joy if not in reaction an angel informing them that Jesus had risen from the dead?

It fails to provide a coherent account while incorporating all the details of the four versions.

Wishful thinking does not constitute a sound argument and, so far, that is all you've provided. I've shown how the notion is contrary to the text and you've offered nothing substantive to rebut it. False claims of an argument from silence and repeating your wishful thinking do not constitute a substantive rebutal.

Speaking of (weak) arguments from silence.

Only in the version that lacks the assurance of the angel. So, in other words, the only reason you have to suspect doubt is your desire to harmonize the accounts. Nice circular reasoning. Doubling down on your logical fallacies?

Another argument from silence? Note that you have accounts of doubt for everyone else but nothing but a personal desire to reconcile the obvious incompatibility for Mary.

Showing that your attempt to harmonize conflict with the text has nothing to do with any "personal dislike" on my part. Straw man. Are you trying for a record number of logical fallacies?

The doubts of others do nothing to support your assertion. This is only more true when we've already seen that Mary responded to the angel's assurance with joy. On second thought, this appears to be an example of the fallacy of composition more than an argument from silence.

Good thing my argument is not based on "just" that fact.

I'm not denying the possibility but you would need more than just that to support your assertion even if there wasn't the incompatibility I've already shown. You need direct support for the text and a better explanation of Mary's joy than the nonsensical claim that it was not her reaction to the words of the angel.

I've done nothing but refute your claims and with nothing but the texts, themselves. Stop with this straw man. You are embarrassing yourself.

Yes and I showed the textual basis for that claim. I never, contrary to your accusation, claimed I was quoting "acceptance" from any passage. You were wrong. Again.

No, it still makes no sense for Mary to react with joy upon hearing the words of the angel (note that you failed to include that rather significant portion - more disingenuousness) and then promptly completely forget what she had been told.

I've argued with nothing but the texts, themselves. Why bother saying things so blatantly untrue? Do you imagine anyone believes it?

ChristMyth

Luke:

Fact of the passage:
1. It was very early in the morning.
2. Women go to the tomb. (no number or designation)
3. Stone already rolled away when they arrive.
4. They are alone in the tomb when they arrive and only after wondering where the body of Jesus had gone do the two angels appear to them.
5. Angels: "Why do you look for the living among he dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: "The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again"
6. Leave tomb to tell the Eleven and others.
7. Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and others tell apostles.
8. Apostles do not believe them.
9. Peter runs to tomb to find linen and wonders what happened.

ChristMyth

John:

Facts of this passage:
1. Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark.
2. Mary Magdalene went to the tomb (only Mary Magdalene is mentioned)
3. Stone removed when she arrives
4. Goes to Simon Peter and others to tel about the empty tomb
5. Peter and others rush to the tomb to investigate.
6. Another brother reaches tomb before Peter and finds linen. Peter reaches tomb second and finds linen and burial cloth.
7. The other disciple goes inside and believes.
8. Disciples go back to homes.
9. Mary stays behind and cries.
10. Two angels appear. Angels: "Woman, why are you crying?"
11. Jesus appears to Mary and has a conversation.
12. Mary rushes back to the disciples and proclaims risen lord.

ChristMyth

Now, Dr. using just the facts that I have listed, please make a complete narrative of what happened on that fateful morning. Skip nothing listed. Do not read into the text something that is not there (i.e. if there were two angels then there must have been one). Do not add anything to the text that is not mentioned in the above quotes.

I await your response.

Christmyth

Half-Life

Dr lazer blast,

You keep on basing Mary's doubt on the fact that others saw him and doubted. But, in the Gospels Mary gets the news from the angel first before anyone else. So, if anything, Mary got the news first.

Why would she have a reason to doubt the angels before she even knew others were doubting since they didn't even get the news yet? :huh:

It's also interesting to note that in John they arrive at the tomb while it's still dark, implying it is very early in the morning. They get to the tomb, don't find big J anywhere inside, then the disciples go home. But, Mary is staying outside the tomb and Jesus appeared to her. Then the very next passage says Jesus appeared to his disciples in the evening.

So, early in the morning before sunrise they find nothing at the tomb. Disciples go home and Jesus appears to Mary and then all of a sudden it's evening and Jesus appears to his disciples. Jesus seemed to have an awfully lot of free time on his hands during this day. What was the floating Jesus doing all day?

angelo

One should note that the later stories of Easter were all developed from Mark's original narrative, in which no one sees the risen Christ.
In Mark's gospel the women followers simply stare into a tomb that has not been able to contain him. By the time we get to John's account, some thirty years later, Thomas seeks to feel the nail prints. The proof of an evolving story is plainly seen. the later the story gets, the more supernatural it gets. By the the time the gospel of John is written, Jezus is gawd himself. The Mark account is primitive compared to the later gospels which must be remembered all had Mark's account in front of them as they wrote their versions of events. Mark's gospel ends with an empty tomb with no other explanation of why it was empty. There are many hints that perhaps the body was taken by someone, but not the accounts we later find in the gospels of Luke, Mathew and John which were for all accounts complete fabrication either deliberate or just a natural evolution of the whole tale.

dr lazer blast

Like I said, semantics games, you continue to ignore the fact that the gospels are 4 accounts of the same event, so regardless of whether I quoted 'just matthew' the other gospels are taken into account, you provide no evidence of your claims, just baseless assertions.

wrong, we are dealing with my narrative not yours.

once again, this is based upon my narrative not yours, I am saying it because that is how my narrative goes, it doesn't contradict anything.


assertion with no evidence, I even gave you the jhon gospel with matthew plugged into it and there was no contradiction, this is about my narrative and not yours.


no you've given me bald assertions. Where is the evidence to back it up? I have plenty to back up my claims, you haven't offered me one form of scripture to back up your assertions.



I asked you a question and you haven't provided an answer, I gave you the gospel of jhon with matthew plugged into and there was no contradiction. You have given me nothing but baseless assertion.



You seem to be fogetting the simple fact that the 4 gospels are 4 different accounts of the same events, so that means 4 authors all saw the same event, basically matthew and jhon are talking about the SAME THING, I gave you jhon's gospel with matthew plugged into it, and there was no contradiction.
You're using an argument from silence and an unproven assertion, just because jhon doesn't mention the angel the first time doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You have once again offered no evidence to support your bald assertions.


everyone that heard of Christs ressurection doubted, Mary heard of christs ressurection, based upon the available resources, I can easily make the same case that Mary doubted as well.
Mary came to peter with doubt, after Mary saw Jesus, she went to the disciples wit no doubt, which is pointed out in the difference of how she approached people. That isn't an argument from silence by the way.

you have once again offered no evidence to back up your baseless assertions.



Yes it does, you offer baseless assertions, you have given no evidence of contradictions in my story or any inconsistencies, you're just throwing out assertions with no evidence. We can't know anything for sure, so all you're doing is playing semantic games while throwing up baseless assertions.

nah you and atheos already made a record number of logical fallacies. I've never seen so many baseless assertions, blatent denial, and arguments from silence in my life.


THere you go ignoring the fact that she responded with fear also. You continue to forget that the gospels are 4 accounts, so you must also take into account that she responded with fear. So right now you've made an error. Mary responded with joy AND fear, not just joy. You can't just choose one gospel and ignore the others, because you're ignoring 4 other peoples view points of the same event. i.e a detective would not listen to JUST one person's accounts of a murder when 3 other people saw it (provided they were all sensible people in the right mind).

Can you make one point without making an incorrect assertion?

it sure isn't based on evidence, just baseless assertions.


Once again, joy and fear. Incorrect assertion, ignoring the other view points of the event.
based upon what evidence? better for you personally? ya right. Once again, this has nothing to do with your personal likes or dislikes. Once again, youre lacking in the evidence to support your assertions.



you have not posted a single scripture, instead you have ignored the countless times i've asked you to provide evidence for the 'acceptance', you have posted incorrect assertions that mary responded with JUST joy, you have ignored the other gospels regarding certain issues (refusing to accept the fact that mark said they were afraid), ignored my narrative, and have not posted ANY evidnece of your claims what so ever, and you have also dodged my question. Answer THIS question specifically.

My narrative asserts that Mary doubted the what the angels said. The reason she felt joy is because she didn't see the body, but the reason she was felt fear was because she doubted what the angels said was true.
Christ rising from the dead was difficult to accept, and she ran to Peter.
What do you have to refute this?

since you have dodged the above question so many times I have bolded it for you. Answer it please.

dr lazer blast

This is to myth:
Have you even read my narrative? or any of my posts?, they give an account of what happened, I suggest you start with criticizing that.