Sauron

Not quite. But it might be evidence of souvenir taking, if the staff is in actuality part of an ancient set of chopsticks. Thus proving their Jewish origin. (The Hebrews were wandering in search of a good late-night Chinese takeout place, you know).

Gawen

Why would Lars...I mean...The Messiah be doing research and book exchanges at a library?

Wouldn't Jesus...I mean, Lars...*tsk*...I mean The Messiah KNOW all this stuff?

3DJay

Lol...he didn't even know what the plague of the firstborn was.


Peace

Nuwanda

Context is king Sauron. You know I was not speaking of grave robbing, gold seeking vandals, I was speaking of religious zealots on prigrimage holiday. Both Jews and Christians have been returning to the exodus sites for thousands of years looking for whatever would give them the feeling that they were close to the action. A piece of pottery would definitely suffice. Again, this is only speculation. I'm not trying to prove that this is what went down, but it is reasonable that it could have. It would be unreasonable to believe it could not have.

I'll put out this challenge: choose any genius among you and demonstrate why this line of speculation is not logical and reasonable and I will sing with you in unison that the exodus is pure myth. If it turns out this speculation is reasonable I would ask you to keep an open mind.

RED DAVE

From Nuwanda:
Because there isn't a single, concete fact to support it.

The fact is that the Biblical Exodus never happened. There are no records of it, archaeological or otherwise, outside of the Bible. Remember, you are talking about the presence of over 2 million people in an organized band for 40 years, including 38 years at one place, Kadesh Barnea.

Music, professor, please.

RED DAVE

3DJay

It is not reasonable because religious zealots will take any available opportunity to try and prove that the Bible is true. I present to you...Lars...as exhibit A.

I rest my case.


Peace

-Jay-

So far as you know...

regards,

NinJay

Sauron

But that differentiation doesn't help your argument here. My rebuttal scenario (Valley of the Kings) doesn't require gold-robbing vandals. It merely requires someone who wants to find something that is hidden.

Both your scenario (hypothetical pillaging of the 38 year encampment at Kadesh Barnea) and my scenario have the same elements:

1. hidden artifacts worth something to somebody who is motivated to look for them;
2. pillaged over thousands of years

So the question still remains: if they're still finding artifacts in the Valley of the Kings even after thousands of years of pillaging, then why wouldn't we still be finding artifacts in the Sinai after thousands of years of (hypothetical) pillaging? There were a lot more Hebrews (2.5 million) than there were Egyptian kings and princesses. They should have left behind a lot more junk to be found -- *assuming* that there were any such Sinai artifacts in the first place, of course.

Tourists returning to Kadesh Barnea? No, not that I am aware of. Returning to Mt Sinai (Jebel Musa)? Probably. The big action (i.e., Moses & the 10 Commandments) happened at Mt Sinai, not at Kadesh Barnea. That's where St Catherine's Monastery is at, and where a bush they have labeled the Burnish Bush is at.

Besides the above, you can also consider how often tourists to Egypt have been coming, and in what numbers. Yet you can still find the occasional Egyptian or Roman coin on the ground, or a piece of pottery. Or apply the same logic to Rome.

Larsguy47

Well, we know the Bible is true and now at least we know WHEN the Exodus happened, which makes a big advantage. We have plenty of evidence, as noted, from Shishak through the Persian Period confirming not just the presence of the Jews, but reflecting their importance in the region just as The Bible says. If Mesha hadn't written in the Moabite stone that he had been a tributory to Israel they archaeologists would have likely doubted the story was true and would be saying, "THERE ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Moab was ever under the control of Israel, which was just a few small tribes at the time!" And who would contradict it? The continuity of the Bible history after the battle of Qarqar isn't questioned because the surrounding people interacting with them left records.

Same with Egypt, Akhenaten's regious reforms in the direction of monotheism is sufficiently explained by the trauma and majesty of the the Ten Plagues.

So this focus on this sort of dark period of the Judges and the wilderness trek is a focus because there's nothing really but archaeology to establish this. If the Mereneptah reference hadn't mentioned Israel then you know archaeologists would be claiming they didn't exisit. The Merenepthah reference limits their anti-speculation.

So the fact is, the Bible is TRUE HISTORY for certain periods where there is some extra-Biblical secular coordination, and archaeological evidence available. So it's just this tiny little time period, when the Jews were not building permanent houses, living in tents under very special circumstances and there just not having been any general artifacts left TODAY of that trek. They may have, indeed, left a few artifacts but who knows who picked these up over all those years traveling through the region?

Scientists are a different sort. They think if they can't see God there is no God. Even though they are told God is "invisible" they somehow think he should show up on one of their radar machines.

So who knows. Maybe finally someone will find some massive LBIIA period graves 10 feet below the surface of some sand dune or something and then all of a sudden they will say, "Ahhhh, yes, now FINALLY apparently over a million people must have been here at one time during the LBIIA Period, I guess the Bible was right, but for some other reason nothing else was found in the area before now supporting they came through here!"

People living in tents don't build stone houses just for the sake of leaving something behind for archaeologists to find to prove they were there.

LG47

spin

This is a statement of faith and has no value in itself when trying to establish what actually happened.

You certainly don't know when the exodus happened, though you might believe you know.

Are you lying on a couch at the moment? If so, do you know my fee scale?

The Jews, or at least the inhabitants of Judah, appear in history as Samaria was being dealt with by Assyria.

You confuse bible story with history. You need to demonstrate that they are the same, while most scholars are having difficulty honestly keeping Solomon and David, because they are only reported on in extremely later (biblical) texts.

You still haven't made any connection of Akhenaten with your theories.

Israel of the Merneptah inscription is a single tribal entity in a very specific location, which is consistent with the Finkelstein model of interior growth of an indigenous population.

This is called turning your back on a century of more rigorous biblical analysis, which against its will has gone the other direction.

This idyllic fantasy doesn't seem to have much to do with 2.4 million people huddled around a tiny well for 38 years.

Faith springs eternal.

People who live in tents for 38 years leave traces. They shape the land. They leave deposits of refuse. They die and leave bones. They break things and leave the sherds. They have fireplaces which leave distinctive signs. They make tracks whose traces last thousands of years. They build things to make living more functional. They produce mountains of faeces each day.

There are archaeologists who specialize in nomadic remains. Go and find out something about it, rather than making conclusions based on nothing.


spin