Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 07-21-2008, 02:45 PM

found few more:

Saint Goerge and Perseus

Pope urging preachers to religious merging:
http://englishheathenism.homestead.com/popesletter.html

Cesc · 07-21-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

found few more:

Saint Goerge and Perseus

Pope urging preachers to religious merging:
http://englishheathenism.homestead.com/popesletter.html

I believe the St. George brave knight rescuing the maiden/princess from monster theme is both from Perseus/Hesione and Hercules/Andromeda. Same theme is also found in later American mythology.

:huh: :grin:

Crimson Glory · 07-21-2008, 04:41 PM

There are some lists here:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/syncretism.html

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/out-of-egypt.html

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html

vid · 07-21-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

I believe the St. George brave knight rescuing the maiden/princess from monster theme is both from Perseus/Hesione and Hercules/Andromeda. Same theme is also found in later American mythology.

:huh: :grin:

:grin:

I found this claim in a partly scholary book, and then when i looked up it on wikipedia, same claim was repeated:

Quote:

The parallels with Perseus and Andromeda are inescapable. In the allegorical reading, the dragon embodies a suppressed pagan cult.[6] The story has roots that predate Christianity. Examples such as Sabazios, the sky father, who was usually depicted riding on horseback, and Zeus's defeat of Typhon the Titan in Greek mythology, along with examples from Germanic and Vedic traditions, have led a number of historians, such as Loomis, to suggest that George is a Christianized version of older deities in Indo-European culture.

Crimson Glory: Thanks. I know jesusneverexisted.com likes to pull their arguments too far sometimes, so i need to recheck every claim there (no sources given), but still this a nice list of material to go through.

yalla · 07-21-2008, 07:27 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre
This 'evolution' may need to be checked.

The mitre:
- "now known as the traditional, ceremonial head-dress of bishops and certain abbots in the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, some Lutherans, and also bishops and certain other clergy in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Eastern Catholic Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches."
-"Its use has possible precedents in the Phrygian mithraic sacrifice and the mitre-like headdress signifying enlightenment and received at a priests inauguration"
[note 'possible']

-" "The tiara [from which the mitre originates] probably developed from the Phrygian cap, or frigium, a conical cap worn in the Greco-Roman world"

mountainman · 07-21-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Thank you guys, so far.

OK Vid, What about this list of three parts ?

Quote:

INDEX of cited "Early Christian" Inscriptions

01 253 CE - de Rossi's Cornelius Stone [Probable forgery].
02 250 CE - The Marcus son of Alexander inscription. ["I beg of you, kind brothers, by the one God"]
03 217 CE - the Marcus Aurelius Prosenes inscription. [Later hand: "welcomed before god"]
04 250 CE - Basilides Inscription, Ostia, Rome [The phrase "he sleeps" is christian?]
05 3rd CE - "Helix" athlete, Eumenia. [not located]
06 3rd CE - Nicomedia, Bithnya: 3rd CE Phoenician wood carver. [not located]
07 3rd CE - Aurelius Aristeas Inscription, Akmonein. ["reckon with the righteousness of God."]
08 1st CE - Erastus Inscription, mid first century. ["Paul mentions an Erastus"]
09 3rd CE - Fox; Harland; Snyder - Asia Minor and Phrygia ["he will reckon with (the living) God." ].
10 200 CE - The Marcus Demetrianos Inscription ["most holy ones who also had faith in God"].
11 216 CE - Inscription of Abercius [Cannot be unambiguously associated with christianity]
12 253 CE - Inscription of Pectorius. [Cannot be unambiguously associated with christianity]

INDEX of cited "Early Christian" Papyrii and Papyrii Fragments

101 sql CE: P.Oxy 5 "christian". [Nomina sacra ?]
102 3rd CE: P.Bas 17 [non christian]
103 303 CE: P.Oxy 43 Nighwatchmen's report - 2 churches. [two churches]
104 sql CE: P.Oxy 210 A "christian" fragment. [Nomina sacra ?]
105 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 405 Irenaeus.[Dating?]
106 3/4 CE: P.Oxy 407 "christian amulet; 3rd/4th century". [4th amulet]
107 265 CE: P.Oxy. 412 and 907[Nomina sacra ?]
108 2nd CE: PSI.XIV.1412 "via Sotas, the christian". [chrestian?]
109 3rd CE: P.Oxy 1786 Hymn with music "christian". [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]
110 3rd CE: P.Oxy 2070 Scratch pad "christian". [abbreviated (I—h—) 'Jesus']
111 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 2276[ “in the lord god” ]
112 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 2404 [ “in the lord god” ]
113 256 CE: P.Oxy 3035 Order to arrest "chrestian". [citation is "chrestian"]
114 3rd CE: P.Oxy 4365 Booklending.[incorrectly presumed christian]
115 3/4 CE: P.Oxy 1493 lines 4–5; Nomina sacra in letter with virtually no other Christian identifiers[Nomina sacra]

INDEX of other interesting "Non Christian" Papyrii Fragments
which cannot detain us

151 xxx CE: P.Oxy. 3057 [Judge, non christian]
152 xxx CE: P.Oxy. 3313 [Judge, non christian]
153 xxx CE: P.Oxy. 3069 [Judge, non christian]
154 xxx CE: P.Oxy. 3314 [Judge, non christian]
155 4th CE: P.Oxy. 209 [sample]
156 4th CE: P.Oxy. 4127 [sample]
157 4th CE: P.Oxy. 3857 ["Greetings in the Lord"]
158 3rd CE: PSI.9.1041 . ["as is proper"]
159 3rd CE: PSI.9.1041 . ["as is proper"]
160 3rd CE: PSI.9.1041 . ["as is proper"]
161 2nd CE: PSI.3.208 . ["according to custom"]
162 4th CE: P.Oxy. 4010 [magic and "the lord's prayer"]
163 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 32 [everyday life]
164 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 3646 [everyday life]
165 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 115 [everyday life]
166 3rd CE: P.Oxy. 3724 [epigrams to Philodemis]
167 4th CE: P.Walsh Univ.I.20 [church "land-grabs"]
168 4th CE: P.Oxy. 3311 [church "land-grabs"]
169 304 CE: P.Oxy. 2673 [the "illiterate lector"]

INDEX of cited "Early Christian" Archeological relics

200+ Early "christian" Art, Pottery Objects, sarcophagi, relics, sculpture.

Discussion of the sources listed above can be found at this page entitled The Early Christian Epigraphic Habit.

Best wishes,

Pete

vid · 07-21-2008, 11:31 PM

mountainman: After quick look, I don't see how that answer my question. Maybe you was being ironic under impression I am looking for info for some "constantine invented christianity" theory? That's not the case. I am simply looking for aspects of earlier pagan religions that were fused into christianity, I hope you agree there were such

Still, it's a very interesting list, haven't seen your site so far.

Roger Pearse · 07-22-2008, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatAutumn

~Easter and all of the modern-day traditions that go along with it have Pagan roots. Ostara was the Pagan Sabbat to celebrate Eostre, the Saxon Goddess of fertility.

Are you under the impression that the ancients called the festival by the English word 'Easter'?

Quote:

~The Triune nature of God stems from the Triple Goddess (Father, Son, Holy Ghost/Maiden, Mother, Crone).

I find no reference to this as a source in Tertullian Adversus Praxean, which defines the formula of the Trinity for the first time. On the other hand there is a great deal of comment that no-one wants anything that sounds like paganism.

Seriously, you've picked up some stuff which is nearly complete rubbish here. Not your fault, of course, but beware of such things online.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

mountainman · 07-22-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

mountainman: After quick look, I don't see how that answer my question. Maybe you was being ironic under impression I am looking for info for some "constantine invented christianity" theory? That's not the case. I am simply looking for aspects of earlier pagan religions that were fused into christianity, I hope you agree there were such

Still, it's a very interesting list, haven't seen your site so far.

Hey Vid,

I am defending the argument that every single citation on the above list is either pagan or jewish. IMO every one of these citations, which have been represented by various scholars and academics of yesterday and today as being "christian" are in fact not christian at all.

More in line with your question other pagan influences on christianity must include the following:

* The Logos of Heraclitus via Philo
* The Healing God Ascelpius via many pagans
* The writer and sage Apollonius of Tyana (man of letters)
* The Sybils.
* The Pontifex Maximus
* Porphyry's literary subject matter c.312-324 CE
* Heroditus
* The Gita (whoever wrote "The Acts of Peter and the 12 A's" references it)
* The sayings of the Essenes and Therapeutae (via Philo)

Best wishes,

Pete

andrewcriddle · 07-22-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

:grin:

I found this claim in a partly scholary book, and then when i looked up it on wikipedia, same claim was repeated:

Quote:

The parallels with Perseus and Andromeda are inescapable. In the allegorical reading, the dragon embodies a suppressed pagan cult.[6] The story has roots that predate Christianity. Examples such as Sabazios, the sky father, who was usually depicted riding on horseback, and Zeus's defeat of Typhon the Titan in Greek mythology, along with examples from Germanic and Vedic traditions, have led a number of historians, such as Loomis, to suggest that George is a Christianized version of older deities in Indo-European culture.

The problem is that the dragon is a medieval addition to the legend of St George.

The earliest ascertainable versions of the story of St George are preposterous but with no dragon.

Andrew Criddle

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07-21-2008, 02:45 PM	#21
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	found few more: Saint Goerge and Perseus Pope urging preachers to religious merging: http://englishheathenism.homestead.com/popesletter.html

07-21-2008, 04:41 PM	#23
Crimson Glory Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 37	There are some lists here: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/syncretism.html http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/out-of-egypt.html http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html

07-21-2008, 07:27 PM	#25
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre This 'evolution' may need to be checked. The mitre: - "now known as the traditional, ceremonial head-dress of bishops and certain abbots in the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, some Lutherans, and also bishops and certain other clergy in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Eastern Catholic Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches." -"Its use has possible precedents in the Phrygian mithraic sacrifice and the mitre-like headdress signifying enlightenment and received at a priests inauguration" [note 'possible'] -" "The tiara [from which the mitre originates] probably developed from the Phrygian cap, or frigium, a conical cap worn in the Greco-Roman world"

07-21-2008, 11:31 PM	#27
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	mountainman: After quick look, I don't see how that answer my question. Maybe you was being ironic under impression I am looking for info for some "constantine invented christianity" theory? That's not the case. I am simply looking for aspects of earlier pagan religions that were fused into christianity, I hope you agree there were such Still, it's a very interesting list, haven't seen your site so far.

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