Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Faith · 06-01-2004, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahzi

What? Yes they should. According to Christianity, beliefs matter. Not just in some abstract way, but in a direct, immediate, God-will-punish-our-nation and you-will-burn-forever way. True Christians should lay down in the street blocking traffic until everyone comes to believe in God. Of what value is life on Earth to the True Christian, except as a test to get into Heaven?

Yes, beliefs matter. So does behavior. One who professes belief in the teachings of Christ should go that extra mile and live by those teachings. That means loving thy neighbor regardless of his beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahzi

The average Christian's loyalty is akin to a sports or music fan's loyalty: they've heard some stuff this Jesus guy has done, and they like the sound of it. They hope he wins the tournament, because they've got five bucks riding on him. That's as deep as it goes. I don'th think Jesus would be amused.

Nor do I if that's all someone bases their beliefs upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahzi

Edit: Just to make it clear - the only system that allows you to believe whatever you want is secular humanism, because it denies that mere belief matters. SH doesn't care what you believe, it cares what you do. If you can believe in fairy tales and not allow that to influence your actions, fine (although that strikes me as nigh impossible). The point is, all this tolerance you are preaching is a secular humanist value, a product of the Enlightentment, and forced onto the Christians at gun-point.

I'm sure that must be why Jesus spent time teaching about not judging others and saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

Are you familiar with the "No True Scotsman" fallacy?

For that matter, are you familiar with Luke 11:37-54?

Yes to both questions.

Mageth · 06-01-2004, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

I'm sure that must be why Jesus spent time teaching about not judging others

And yet, Jesus judged others. See Luke 11.

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and saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."

In so saying, Jesus was indeed "attacking the beliefs" of, and judging, the potential stoners.

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Yes to both questions.

Yes to the second question, and yet the following?

Quote:

Yes, beliefs matter. So does behavior. One who professes belief in the teachings of Christ should go that extra mile and live by those teachings. That means loving thy neighbor regardless of his beliefs.

True, Jesus may have "loved" the Pharisees, but you would be hard pressed to establish that he wasn't judging them, or attacking their beliefs, in Luke 11.

Faith · 06-01-2004, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

True, Jesus may have "loved" the Pharisees, but you would be hard pressed to establish that he wasn't judging them, or attacking their beliefs, in Luke 11.

He attacked the Pharisees for pretending to be so righteous. They were all about their laws and traditions ... to the exclusion of living a pure and God-like existence. And worse, by being this way they were hindering others from spiritual purity. Jesus said as much when he told them they were like unmarked graves, defiling all who came into contact with them.

God's not a big fan of hypocrisy, y'know.

trendkill · 06-01-2004, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

The simple answer is...true Christians shouldn't attack others for their beliefs. Please consider that the next time someone is hostile to you in the name of Christianity.

That doesn't (or shouldn't) mean much to an atheist. If you don't believe Christianity is true, it seems illogical to believe that there are "true Christians". There are only people who profess Christianity.

dado · 06-01-2004, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

He attacked the Pharisees for pretending to be so righteous.

Jesus was also a Pharisee. Pharisees were no more monolithic in practice than any other group - some good, some bad, most middling. the last decades of the second temple era were a running battle - a theological civil war - between the two major Pharasitical schools. to his credit, Jesus's message was (mostly) consistent with the winning side.

Mageth · 06-01-2004, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

He attacked the Pharisees for pretending to be so righteous. They were all about their laws and traditions ... to the exclusion of living a pure and God-like existence. And worse, by being this way they were hindering others from spiritual purity. Jesus said as much when he told them they were like unmarked graves, defiling all who came into contact with them.

God's not a big fan of hypocrisy, y'know.

Like I said, Jesus judged, and attacked, the Pharisees. Nothing you said contradicts that statement. Instead, you make excuses as to why some beliefs are justifiably judged and attacked - contradicting your claim, by the way, that Christ taught, and Christians should practice, non-judgment and non-attack.

The truth is, the early Christian writers were not a big fan of the Pharisees, probably because the Pharisees were not a big fan of the early Christian sect of Judaism. So they misrepresented, and attacked, the Pharisees in the Gospels.

The First-Century Pharisees were probably little like the way they were portrayed in the Gospels (which can hardly be trusted to rightly portray a rival Jewish sect, as their intent was to promote the Christian sect against other sects). The Pharisees were actually a Jewish sect that taught individual "spiritual purity", that "spiritual" purity could be achieved by anyone. And note that many of the beliefs of early Christianity (the existence of spirits and angels, the resurrection, and the coming of a Messiah) were Pharisaic beliefs.

For more info:

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/pharisee.htm

Faith · 06-01-2004, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

Like I said, Jesus judged, and attacked, the Pharisees. Nothing you said contradicts that statement. Instead, you make excuses as to why some beliefs are justifiably judged and attacked - contradicting your claim, by the way, that Christ taught, and Christians should practice, non-judgment and non-attack.

I made no excuses for Jesus' attack on the Pharisees, nor did I contradict my belief that Christians shouldn't judge others. Jesus was without sin. Therefore, according to His teachings, He was the only one who could righteously "cast the first stone" and judge a group of religious leaders He viewed as hindering Jews from coming to God.

And I firmly believe that Christians should practice non-judgment and non-attack.

Jinto · 06-01-2004, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

The simple answer is...true Christians shouldn't attack others for their beliefs. Please consider that the next time someone is hostile to you in the name of Christianity.

That's funny - I thought the bible told True Christians™ to kill anyone who believes differently than they do. Which is something to consider the next time someone is hostile to you in the name of Christianity - if you are still alive afterwards, they are not a True Christian™. Not, of course, that there are any True Christians™.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 13

13:1 - If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

13:2 - And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

13:3 - Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

13:4 - Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

13:5 - And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

13:6 - If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:7 - Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

13:8 - Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

13:9 - But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

13:10 - And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

13:11 - And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

13:12 - If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13:13 - Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

13:14 - Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

13:15 - Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

13:16 - And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

13:17 - And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

13:18 - When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

Faith · 06-01-2004, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinto

That's funny - I thought the bible told True Christians™ to kill anyone who believes differently than they do. Which is something to consider the next time someone is hostile to you in the name of Christianity - if you are still alive afterwards, they are not a True Christian™. Not, of course, that there are any True Christians™.

Deuteronomy 13
<snip OT Law written by Moses for Jews to follow>

Hmmm. Maybe you could provide some New Testament evidence for your assertion?

Biff the unclean · 06-01-2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

Hmmm. Maybe you could provide some New Testament evidence for your assertion?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

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