Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Minimalist · 02-25-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Fraud does not look good IMO.

Pete, if there was no fraud there would be NO saints.

mountainman · 02-25-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Fraud does not look good IMO.

Pete, if there was no fraud there would be NO saints.

What does this mean? This is a crime investigation, isn't it? What about the pagan priests? Has anyone got their side of the story? Who were the pagan saints that IMO actually lived, and who have been erased from "history"? Who did Constantine have executed during the epoch he published the christian bible?

PS: If this is joke, can it be started with the question "What did COnstantine say to Eusebius"?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

schilling.klaus · 02-25-2008, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Pete, if there was no fraud there would be NO saints.

that's completely false, as Saints don't depend on any fraud,
but on the denial of the corrupting enjoyment of the world.

Klaus Schilling

yalla · 02-26-2008, 05:42 AM

Presuming that the Romans actually did persecute Christians, then how unusual was this.
Did the Romans persecute other religions?
A previous poster mentioned followers of Bacchus being persecuted whatever, so I'll presume that has some validity.
So I looked to see if there were others who were persecuted.

How about the druids?
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...the_druids.htm
This site includes this info [again presuming validity]:
"In their own way, the Druids were very religious........ The Romans determined that they would stamp out the Druids....In AD 60, the governor of England, Suetonius, decided that the only way to proceed was to attack the known heartland of the Druids – the island of Anglesey in the hope that if the centre of the Druids was destroyed, those Druids in outlying areas would die out.
"

http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/d..._Religions.htm

Has this about Cybele and Aphrodite:
"In 187 B.C. it was proposed in the Roman senate to make the religion of Aphrodite illegal. The law was not passed, but this is the attitude of being aggressively against this religion for the cultural damage it did on the people. Even so, Rome did send an army to destroy the temple of Aphrodite at the Acrocorinth at Corinth in 146 B.C. to end the cult. The soldiers destroyed and disbanded the city of Corinth completely at that time. Even so the people were driven away to other cities around the area, but they continued with their fertility cults.
In 44 B.C. Roman reestablished the city of Corinth, but the temple of Aphrodite was not rebuilt by the Romans nor did they permit others to rebuild it. "

And other religions are mentioned as suffering from unfriendly Roman attention eg. Bacchus ''Because of the secretive nature of their festivals, some used these festivals to plan opposition to the Roman government, and they were later outlawed."

I believe the Jews were subject to prohibition from time to time also.
There may be others .

My point is [and I know the linked sites above may not be first class witnessses so I'll welcome better] that persecution of various religions by the Romans was not unknown, for whatever reasons relevant, and that whatever persecutions of Christians occurred was not unique.
cheers
yalla

Clivedurdle · 02-26-2008, 09:24 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest...nsinvade.shtml

Quote:

Like many periods of unrest throughout history, the prime mover for the Roman assault and invasion of Anglesey lay in the religious significance posed by Druidism. The Celts were not a fanatically religious people but the Romans saw Druidism as a serious menace - and Anglesey, spiritual home of the Druids and the last remaining bastion of Druidism in the British Isles - as the centre of that threat.

Quote:

It is said that they spared none they met on that bloody field of battle. Men, women and children were slaughtered, butchered by an army spurred on by its earlier shame. Many of the Druids and their followers were thrown into their sacred groves of oak and then burned alive. There were, it is said, few prisoners taken.

How long the battle lasted is not known. What is, however, is the fact that the Romans showed no quarter in the fight for Mona Insulis.

Methinks the xians doth protest too much about persecution!

Clivedurdle · 02-26-2008, 09:30 AM

http://www.aboutulverston.co.uk/celts/druids.htm

Interesting discussion here about Buddhism and Druidism.

mountainman · 02-26-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

Presuming that the Romans actually did persecute Christians, then how unusual was this.
Did the Romans persecute other religions?

The druidic religion of the Gallic Celts?
One million Celts killed, one million enslaved.
Julius Caesar 55 BCE.

The religion of the Dacians?
Genocide - the lot went.
Trajan, 1st century.

The Jews of the town of Emmaus?
Two thousand crucified.
Trajan, 1st century.

The Romans were the "professional rulers".
Persecutions were related to military conquest,
and political expediences, slaves, gold, etc.
Religion was way down the list.

Quote:

"But there are no tribes beyond us,
nothing indeed but waves and rocks,
and the yet more terrible Romans,
from whose oppression escape is
vainly sought by obedience and submission.
Robbers of the world,
having by their universal plunder
exhausted the land, they rifle the deep.

If the enemy be rich, they are rapacious;
if he be poor, they lust for dominion;
neither the east nor the west
has been able to satisfy them.

Alone among men they covet
with equal eagerness poverty and riches.
To robbery, slaughter, plunder,
they give the lying name of empire;
they make a solitude and call it peace."

--- Calgacus (sometimes Calgacos or Galgacus)

Leader of the Caledonian Confederacy who fought the Roman army of Gnaeus Julius Agricola at the Battle of Mons Graupius in northern Scotland in AD 83 or 84. His name can be as interpreted as Celtic *calg-ac-os, "possessing a blade" or "possessing a penis". The only historical source that features him is Tacitus' Agricola which describes him as "the most distinguished for birth and valour among the chieftains". Tacitus wrote a speech for him in advance of the battle in which he describes the exploitation of Britain by Rome and rouses his troops to fight. The above excerpt is a speech attributed to Calgacus by the historian Tacitus in the Agricola (30):

and ...

Quote:

"I appeal to thee a woman.
I rule not, like Nitocris, over beasts of burden,
as are the effeminate nations of the East,
nor like Semiramis, over tradesmen and traffickers,
nor like the man-woman Nero, over slaves and eunuchs

-- such is the precious knowledge
these foreigners introduce among us --

but I rule over Britons,
little versed in craft and diplomacy,
but born and trained in the game of war, men who,
in the cause of liberty stake down their lives,
the lives of their wives and children,
their lands and property.

Queen of such a race,
I implore thine aid for freedom,
for victory over enemies infamous
for the wantonness of the wrongs they inflict,
for their perversion of justice,
for their contempt of religion,
for their insatiable greed;
a people that revel in unmanly pleasures,
whose affections are more to be dreaded
and abhorred than their enmity.
Never let a foreigner bear rule over me or these my countrymen;
never let slavery reign in this island.
Be thou forever O goddess of mankind and victory,
sovereign and Queen in Britain "(ibid.).

--- Bunduica/Voadicia/Bonducca/Boudica/Boudicea/Boadicea (circa 60 CE)
--- Dion Cassius, Xiphilinus Except

Clivedurdle · 02-26-2008, 02:24 PM

You know, xianity does look like the Roman State religion, directly created as such, with an explicit aim of war by capturing hearts and minds.

mountainman · 02-26-2008, 02:32 PM

And souls. "Tyrany beyond the grave". One (Constantine) Bible was worth a legion! It was a Roman Zoroastrian alternative. The Persians ruled by army and religion. They were the zulus on the border (of the Roman empire). Constantine copied Ardashir (225 CE). Even borrowed the Manichaean texts. And capitalised on the very real and bloodthirsty Manichaean persecutions, still in the public mind of the citizens of the Roman empire when he "liberated Rome from the Roman senate". We need to think War-Lord without opposition , which is what (due to the victories of his army) he eventually became, just in time to get publishing rights on the biggest bullshit story of all time.

Minimalist · 02-27-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

You know, xianity does look like the Roman State religion, directly created as such, with an explicit aim of war by capturing hearts and minds.

All organized religion serves the power structure.

"Shut your mouths, do what you're told, work to support us and you'll get your reward in the next life."

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02-26-2008, 05:42 AM	#64
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Presuming that the Romans actually did persecute Christians, then how unusual was this. Did the Romans persecute other religions? A previous poster mentioned followers of Bacchus being persecuted whatever, so I'll presume that has some validity. So I looked to see if there were others who were persecuted. How about the druids? http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...the_druids.htm This site includes this info [again presuming validity]: "In their own way, the Druids were very religious........ The Romans determined that they would stamp out the Druids....In AD 60, the governor of England, Suetonius, decided that the only way to proceed was to attack the known heartland of the Druids – the island of Anglesey in the hope that if the centre of the Druids was destroyed, those Druids in outlying areas would die out. " http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/d..._Religions.htm Has this about Cybele and Aphrodite: "In 187 B.C. it was proposed in the Roman senate to make the religion of Aphrodite illegal. The law was not passed, but this is the attitude of being aggressively against this religion for the cultural damage it did on the people. Even so, Rome did send an army to destroy the temple of Aphrodite at the Acrocorinth at Corinth in 146 B.C. to end the cult. The soldiers destroyed and disbanded the city of Corinth completely at that time. Even so the people were driven away to other cities around the area, but they continued with their fertility cults. In 44 B.C. Roman reestablished the city of Corinth, but the temple of Aphrodite was not rebuilt by the Romans nor did they permit others to rebuild it. " And other religions are mentioned as suffering from unfriendly Roman attention eg. Bacchus ''Because of the secretive nature of their festivals, some used these festivals to plan opposition to the Roman government, and they were later outlawed." I believe the Jews were subject to prohibition from time to time also. There may be others . My point is [and I know the linked sites above may not be first class witnessses so I'll welcome better] that persecution of various religions by the Romans was not unknown, for whatever reasons relevant, and that whatever persecutions of Christians occurred was not unique. cheers yalla

02-26-2008, 09:30 AM	#66
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://www.aboutulverston.co.uk/celts/druids.htm Interesting discussion here about Buddhism and Druidism.

02-26-2008, 02:24 PM	#68
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	You know, xianity does look like the Roman State religion, directly created as such, with an explicit aim of war by capturing hearts and minds.

02-26-2008, 02:32 PM	#69
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	And souls. "Tyrany beyond the grave". One (Constantine) Bible was worth a legion! It was a Roman Zoroastrian alternative. The Persians ruled by army and religion. They were the zulus on the border (of the Roman empire). Constantine copied Ardashir (225 CE). Even borrowed the Manichaean texts. And capitalised on the very real and bloodthirsty Manichaean persecutions, still in the public mind of the citizens of the Roman empire when he "liberated Rome from the Roman senate". We need to think War-Lord without opposition , which is what (due to the victories of his army) he eventually became, just in time to get publishing rights on the biggest bullshit story of all time.

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