Carin Nel

No, Lucifer did not do God's will when He rebeled against God, and that's why he was cut off like a tree and thrown out of heaven to earth from where he came with his plan to overthrow God's government. He was not permitted to be in heaven with his rebellious spirit. Ezekiel 28:16, Is.14:12-14,2 Pet.3:4-6,Rev.12:4.
If you are talking about the heaven to which believers in Jesus Christ will go after they have died, the answer will be they will have a free will in sofar that they can do what they like, but there will be no sin, so it will be impossible for anybody there to think or do anything sinful. Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us, so He is still busy. Just think how beautiful and perfect that place must be!
God did create a sinless creation and placed Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Remember He placed a tree called the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and prohibited them of eating its fruit? You know the outcome..Satan deceived Eve by questioning the outhority of God's Word, just like he does today, and making her doubt God.. She disobeyed God's command and ate the fruit and gave some to Adam who also did not question her actions. (does Delihla and Jezebel ring a bell?) It was not the nature of the fruit, but disobedience which brought the realization of good and evil (Rom. 5:12-21, "..Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin ( Adam and Eve had eternal physical life before they sinned); untill the law Ten Commandments) sin was in the world; but sin is not imuted where there is no law (14) but nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's trangression, who is the figure of Him that was to come (Jesus Christ)....." read untill verse 21 In other words, because of Adam's sin, everyone of us is born into this sinful world with a sinful nature. That is why we need Jesus, the second Adam free us from eternal death which came upon us through the law of sowing and reaping through Adam.
In the OT when they had the 10 commandments, they could not follw them (nobody can) and therefore they had to sacrifice animals without imperfection
for their iniquities. That was a foreshadow of the Lamb of God who would be sacriced for the sins of the world. Now we don't have to sacrifice lambs, because Jesus was the ultimate, perfect Sacrifice on the Cross who paid the price and we can by faith in Him, be free, like Adam and eve before the fall and live forever in a heaven where there is no knowledge of evil, no tears, no pain, no sickness, only joy.

CaliNORML

The hunger and instinct to survive with intelligence got us humans to a point that we developed compassion. Had our ancestors walked around not preying on other living things acting aggressive, hoarding resources or stealing them, making animals such as sheep and ox our servants and taking territory like other beasts we would not be alive.

We ever have been able to develop our brains to have a 4th frontal lobe that holds communication, language, empathy, wisdom and all those great things. Even the ability to understand what we call "evil". But if it is life and we came from it does this not make it "good"? The only difference between us and animals, is not that we are more "intelligent" it is that we are no longer ignorant.

Take the basic instincts that "God" gave you to live, very self centered. Now use them in politics, social, and business practices = Bush, child bullies, Enron, and worse yet when used in religion.

That these instincts evolved us this far is good, but will we use those instincts to better all, or to prey on each other with the indifference of animals?

KMS

Carin Nel

Now you are touching the topic of evolution. Do you want us to go into that?

CaliNORML

Why the bible says it?

"Sons of snakes". This is what I do not understand about "Religion" all through the text is reference to our origins. In the "Temple Incident" when confronted Jesus tells the men that their true father is the devil and that they still basicaly act like beasts, preying on the people.

If you want to believe we were created as is fine, yet it is this text that is consistent about comparing our "human" and what we think "Godly" behavior is indeed nothing but animalish. It uses specific examples to prove the point, in very sharp comparisons.

Usually with a warning attached like "O why can they not see" or "Why must they be so vain?".

KMS

Carin Nel

"Sons of snakes" implies here that they act true to the nature of Satan of which the snake is the symbol. "Your true father is the devil" implies the same. Here Jesus only compares the way they act and behave to the nature of the one that they obey. He implies that if a person surrender to God, His nature will guide that person, and if a person surrenders to Satan, his nature will take over in that person. It is a natural law clearly stated throughout Scripture. I know a Hindu who say that Jesus is the best example of how a person should live, and he tries to live like Jesus. He does not believe Jesus is God, or even the Son of God, but he says he has studied evey religion on earth and found that the way Jesus lived his life is by far the best way for humanity. It does not make him a christian, though. Do you see this is not an easy matter? That is why I enjoy this discussion.

Maronan

Of course, this brings up the Garden of Eden Issue. (Or whatever it may be called.) Were Adam and Eve doing anything wrong when they ate from the tree? If they knew it was wrong to eat from the tree, they couldn't have learned about right and wrong FROM eating from the tree. If they knew nothing of right and wrong beforehand, they couldn't be blamed for eating from the tree, unless God was evil enough to blame the innocent for a "crime" they didn't know they commit. According to the Bible, God put the tree in the middle of their garden (not outside it) and gave them no ability to determine that they shouldn't eat it. (Unless they knew of right and wrong from the start, but that would mess up the story, since they couldn't have LEARNED good and evil by eating the fruit.)

In a sense, the Bible god rigged the garden to make sure the Fall would happen. Not to mention, he created the snake that tempted Eve, and allowed the snake into the garden.

So, God put the tree in the middle of the garden, gave Adam and Eve no ability to know that they shouldn't eat from it, and allowed a demon in to persuade them to eat from it. It sounds like the Fall was a foregone conclusion. (Or, it was made up less than two thousand years ago to try and explain the existence of evil in the world without the benefit of modern science.)

Atheos

So there can be sin in heaven. Allowing, for sake of argument, that (1) there is free will in heaven, (2) it is possible to sin there, (3) if one sins there one is cast into hell, (4) one has an infinite amount of time in which to make one single mistake that will qualify as a sin, then it is a mathematical certainty that eventually every soul in heaven will end up cast into hell.

So this is a different heaven than the one Lucifer rebelled in? Interesting.

I want to point out that this is contradictory. If it is impossible for me to do something god doesn't want me to do then I don't have free will. If you're going to insist that god can somehow create a place where people can do anything they want to do but where nobody will ever do anything god doesn't want them to do then I'm going to have to insist that god could have done that to begin with. The entire "free will" defense collapses, and god is nothing more than a sadistic kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass. This god of yours doesn't make sense.

Fortunately, the truth is that there is no god. This fits all the evidence quite well.

-Atheos

Carin Nel

[QUOTE=Maronan]Of course, this brings up the Garden of Eden Issue. (Or whatever it may be called.) Were Adam and Eve doing anything wrong when they ate from the tree? If they knew it was wrong to eat from the tree, they couldn't have learned about right and wrong FROM eating from the tree. If they knew nothing of right and wrong beforehand, they couldn't be blamed for eating from the tree, unless God was evil enough to blame the innocent for a "crime" they didn't know they commit. According to the Bible, God put the tree in the middle of their garden (not outside it) and gave them no ability to determine that they shouldn't eat it. (Unless they knew of right and wrong from the start, but that would mess up the story, since they couldn't have LEARNED good and evil by eating the fruit.)

In a sense, the Bible god rigged the garden to make sure the Fall would happen. Not to mention, he created the snake that tempted Eve, and allowed the snake into the garden.

You definitely did not read Genises 2:15 to 3:15 because if you did, you would know that every accusation you make is false.

Don't tell me that when you clearly say to your child, "don't touch that flame, it will burn you", and she even repeat it to her friend, touches the flame, gets burned, that you can blame yourself and say that you set her up!
Give me a break!

Carin Nel

Atheos, I said no, there can't be sin in heaven. Satan was not in heaven. It was the heavenlies. Heaven as we will know it is a different place. I've said it alteady. If you read the Bible, you will see, but you don't reaaly want to know, because you have already made up your mnd. I have made up my mind and this discussion is not going anywhere, because you deliberately "misunderstand" and every statement I make. For example:
(Satan). .earth from where he came with his plan to overthrow God's government. He was not permitted to be in heaven with his rebellious spirit." Then you said "So there can be sin in heaven" Give me a break!!
When a person dies and is taken to heaven, he can never be cast into hell. His choice is made on earth while he is still alive. We live in the dispensatin of the New Testament, ot the Old Testament under the Ten Commandments anymore. Heaven is the final dstination. There is free will and no sin because Satan cannot go there to deceive the people anymore. Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, because He is holy. That is why Moses could only see Him from behind when He passed. That's why the Israelites could ot go up the mountain with Him to receive the Ten Commandments.
You can believe your evidence and allow me to believe my evidence.

I really enjoy taking part in this forum. Thank you for this opurtunity. I have never had the chance to meet so many people of so many different beliefs and it is a very good education for me, as I am a teacher at heart an by professon.

I love you all

CaliNORML

So in admitting that a man of Isreal could act like an animal, yet should have been in a perfect image, human form. A human would have no lower instincts to prey upon people because we would be above animals. Thus it is possible that man came from such instincts as snakes, and are only offered the choice to turn them aside? Then our start was in animals as we share this with them, why would "God" make a human to go to animal? Seems easier to raise a human up from animal, there are enough clues.

When Moses erected the snake on a pole it was a basic representation of our spinal cord. In all of us at the base of our head is nothing but a reptile brain with a long body as a spinal cord.

Untill it is seen for what is really at the core of humans instinct to survive how then can you start to accept it and change it? In other words

"How can you know me, if you never knew my father."

KMS