jgoodguy

"The 'historical critical method' is not used with other figures from antiquity." appears to be overly broad. It is used with Sun Tzu.

This discussion will be going on in a decade.

aa5874

The unsubstantiated opinions of HJers about Jesus are already known. You are ONLY expressing the opinion of an HJer but have UTTERLY FAILED to provide any credible source of antiquity that there was a wise man named Jesus who was deified by Jews.

Do you even realize that Jesus was executed in the very NT in less than 16 hours after he claimed publicly for the FIRST time that he was the Son of the Blessed?

The very NT destroys your conjecture of deification of Jesus. No Jewish or Roman writer claimed Jews worshiped men as Gods or a character called Jesus Christ as a God.

If Jesus was a Jew then under Jewish Law those who worship a man as a God are subject to be STONED to death.

In the very NT, Jesus was NOT any wise man he was merely repeating Hebrew Scripture and was deliberately talking in Parables so that the Jews would NOT be converted and be WITHOUT Salvation.

It is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT that you examine Mark 4.11-34 If you want to make claims that Jesus was probably a wise man who was deified by Jews then you ought to provide the sources of antiquity that support your claims since the unsubstantiated opinions of HJers are already known.

ApostateAbe

That's right. The only way we know that Jesus was a failed doomsday prophet is by using the gospels as evidence, and that is something that mythicists hate doing, as they will readily tell you. They will equate it with trusting the gospels.
I was referring to Earl Doherty, PhilosopherJay (Jay Raskin), and Stephan Huller. The latter two have also written and published books on the topic. It is difficult to know that the last two members of the forum have published books since they don't use the forum to plug their books with every post the same way as Earl Doherty, but they have, and unfortunately their arguments are even more rambling and bizarre and less compelling than Earl Doherty's arguments. Acharya S and Richard Carrier post in this forum only occasionally.
That's fine. I don't ask anyone to take my word for it. If you have a different way of making sense of making sense of the mythicist mindset based on your own experiences, then that should be the one you accept.
Only in the most liberal and forgiving sense of the concept. The majority of his published literature on the topic is designed as polemics against Biblicist Christianity and in favor of the skeptical point of view. There are some who look like a duck, walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and they claim they are oranges.

Achwienichtig

I don't even know where to begin.

First off all, you are right to say that Jews who worshipped Jesus would be stoned. The NT agrees with you. That's why Stephen, the first follower of Christ to be put to death, was killed by stoning. I have no idea what you are trying to prove by that point. Paul was also stoned by the Jews, and later taken into custody by the Romans. What's your point?

If Jesus had said he was divine three years prior to being crucified would that make the Bible true? What's your point? It makes sense they would kill him immediately for blasphamy.

If Jesus had said he wanted to save all people and so didn't speak in parables, would that make the Bible true? What's your point?

Toto

Neither historicists nor mythicists trust the gospels very far. There are many historicists who do not label Jesus as a failed doomsday prophet.

Mythicists do not "hate" using the gospels as evidence. Abe has put a bit more emotional spin on this than necessary.

Jay Raskin self published a book a while back that had some technical difficulties. I hope he gets around to revising it. Stephan Huller is not a mythicist.

There are historicists in this field who have produced theories that are even more far out and less credible than any mythicist could hope to be. I don't think that most of the mainstream gives much credibility to James Tabor, although he has adequate academic credentials.

Which only means that Abe couldn't follow the argument. . .

Price is opposed to the misuse of evidence and logic that most evangelicals engage in, but he is favorable towards religious practice in many cases.

aa5874

It has already been shown that Jesus was NOT a doomsday prophet. In gMark, only four disciples were PRIVATELY told of an apocalypse. And it was the 4 disciples that INITIATED the PRIVATE discussion.

Mark 13 In the NT, the Jewish people did NOT ever hear Jesus talk about the signs of the apocalypse. Jesus ONLY spoke in Parables so that they would NOT be converted and Remain in Sin. See Mark 4.

aa5874

The point is you made an unsubstantiated claim for which you have utterly failed to support by any sources of antiquity.

What is so wise about a man who claimed he was the son of the Blessed only to be executed for Blasphemy?

What is so wise about a man who claimed he would resurrect on the third day after he is killed?

What is so wise about a man who claimed the Sanhedrin will see him COMING in the Clouds?

The evidence from antiquity suggests that Jesus, if he did live, was not very wise and was probably mad.

This is the point. Jesus was a mad dumb-ass idiot in the NT if he did live.

Steven Carr

According to Acts, Stephen never mentioned anybody called Jesus.

Paul says he was persecuted on the issue of circumcision, and cites as proof that he has not compromised on the issue of circumcision, the fact that he is still being persecuted.

Achwienichtig

Who said I attributed any of those sayings to Jesus? One does not need to believe in a mythical Jesus in order to believe the he never said half the things the Bible says he said.

Besides, proving that somebody is an idiot and proving that he never existed are two different things.

Achwienichtig

Acts 7:54-57 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.

So, Stephen was stoned for saying that the Son of Man, Jesus, stood at God's right hand. :constern01: