Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 09-30-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

If the new covenant were for all men, then why did Paul not include the Jews? Paul instead supported the covenant of circumcision and law of Moses for Israel. Paul said it is good in much every way because the oracles and covenants of God were given to the Jews.

Bottom line. There is no scripture evidence that Jesus made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You can have all the faith you want but until you can provide the scripture where Jesus declared a new covenant for Gentiles, then again, we must conclude that the Gentile Christians are not "a people" of the Hebrew God and Christians today are living under a false precept.

Quote:

What makes you think Paul did not include Jews.

Did Paul teach the Jews that they should leave their covenants and laws behind and start worshiping Gentile idols? Paul could have said, 'hey Jews, leave Yahweh and bow down to the great goddess Diana'. But did he? No. Paul simply constructed a new religion for Gentiles that gave them hope to be as the Jews, equal and receiving the promise of blessing in the house of Abraham without conforming to set protocol. Some Jews bought it, some did not. Some Jews knew their laws, some didn't care about their laws. Paul seems to be one that didn't care about blasphemy. Or Paul was set on a strategy to protect the Jews through the inclusion of the Gentiles (his lie).

Quote:

The book of Acts starts every city with a visit to the synagogue where Paul gets kicked out and some of the beleive him. The church was primarily Jewish. Paul was Jewish. How did he exclude Jews?

I would have to guess that in those days, the synagogues[churches] were totally Jewish.

Paul seems to have been both a Jew and a Benjamite.

Paul excluded Jews for the same reason he excluded himself from the lawless and uncircumcised Gentiles. Paul was bound to the law God gave to Israelites/Jews, and he did not live by faith alone. His many "works of the law" included attending and observing the Jewish feast and holidays such as Passover observance, slaughtered lambs, Temple offerings, whatever else the Jews did in those days. So we see Paul as preaching one thing and doing another.

Quote:

The covenant was good in every way. Keep reading, he says what it was good for and what it could not accomplish.

Everything was provided for the Israelites/Jews per their covenants and laws.

Quote:

Bottom Line: God is and always was the only God, the God of Gentiles and Jews alike. Romans 1-3 is a description of how far man strayed from that God. The separation of the Jews was a step in Gods plan of redemption.

No, there were many other gods in those days. The Hebrew god was worshiped by the Jews. Non Jewish people worshiped and believed in their own gods.

Quote:

What Jesus said to the Emmaus road disciples applies to me and you as well.

No, what Jesus said was meant for his disciples alone, and any other people his disciples should bring into Judaism. Do you wish to argue that the disciples were recruiting people to worship the great goddess Diana in Jesus name?

Quote:

(Luke 24:25) So he said to them, "You foolish people - how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
(Luke 24:26) Wasn't it necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into his glory?"
(Luke 24:27) Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures.

Jesus was speaking to Jews, not Gentiles. The Messiah/God myth was a Jewish construct for themselves.

Quote:

The foolish part applies to me more than you, probably!

You need to step back and re-read the scriptures without imposing yourself into the story.

Quote:

Here is another example from the Old Testament.

(Isa 19:16) At that time the Egyptians will be like women. They will tremble and fear because the LORD who commands armies brandishes his fist against them.
(Isa 19:17) The land of Judah will humiliate Egypt. Everyone who hears about Judah will be afraid because of what the LORD who commands armies is planning to do to them.
(Isa 19:18) At that time five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the LORD who commands armies. One will be called the City of the Sun.
(Isa 19:19) At that time there will be an altar for the LORD in the middle of the land of Egypt, as well as a sacred pillar dedicated to the LORD at its border.
(Isa 19:20) It will become a visual reminder in the land of Egypt of the LORD who commands armies. When they cry out to the LORD because of oppressors, he will send them a deliverer and defender who will rescue them.
(Isa 19:21) The LORD will reveal himself to the Egyptians, and they will acknowledge the LORD's authority at that time. They will present sacrifices and offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and fulfill them.
(Isa 19:22) The LORD will strike Egypt, striking and then healing them. They will turn to the LORD and he will listen to their prayers and heal them.
(Isa 19:23) At that time there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will visit Egypt, and the Egyptians will visit Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together.(Isa 19:24) At that time Israel will be the third member of the group, along with Egypt and Assyria, and will be a recipient of blessing in the earth.
(Isa 19:25) The LORD who commands armies will pronounce a blessing over the earth, saying, "Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"

God is the God. The God Egypt, Assyria, and the God of his special possession Israel. Is this not evident!

~Steve

Lets see. How would the Jews in Egypt have considered themselves? Jewish Egyptians? How do Jews in America consider themselves? As Jewish Americans?

It is best understood as "bless my people[Israel] in Egypt, Assyria, America, the whole world."

Israel is not land, Israel is its people in Jacob, the one seed, and they are today known as Jewish. All Jewish people are sons of Jacob and in the covenant family of Abraham, provided they have observed the rule of circumcision. Thus all the nations of the earth are blessed in the families of Abraham Jewish/Jacob/Israel.

storytime · 09-30-2008, 08:59 AM

If men were required to be circumcised, how were the women included in that same covenant? Maybe under the headship of the husband?

sschlichter · 09-30-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Did Paul teach the Jews that they should leave their covenants and laws behind and start worshiping Gentile idols? Paul could have said, 'hey Jews, leave Yahweh and bow down to the great goddess Diana'. But did he? No. Paul simply constructed a new religion for Gentiles that gave them hope to be as the Jews, equal and receiving the promise of blessing in the house of Abraham without conforming to set protocol. Some Jews bought it, some did not. Some Jews knew their laws, some didn't care about their laws. Paul seems to be one that didn't care about blasphemy. Or Paul was set on a strategy to protect the Jews through the inclusion of the Gentiles (his lie).

I would have to guess that in those days, the synagogues[churches] were totally Jewish.

Paul seems to have been both a Jew and a Benjamite.

Paul excluded Jews for the same reason he excluded himself from the lawless and uncircumcised Gentiles. Paul was bound to the law God gave to Israelites/Jews, and he did not live by faith alone. His many "works of the law" included attending and observing the Jewish feast and holidays such as Passover observance, slaughtered lambs, Temple offerings, whatever else the Jews did in those days. So we see Paul as preaching one thing and doing another.

Everything was provided for the Israelites/Jews per their covenants and laws.

No, there were many other gods in those days. The Hebrew god was worshiped by the Jews. Non Jewish people worshiped and believed in their own gods.

No, what Jesus said was meant for his disciples alone, and any other people his disciples should bring into Judaism. Do you wish to argue that the disciples were recruiting people to worship the great goddess Diana in Jesus name?

Jesus was speaking to Jews, not Gentiles. The Messiah/God myth was a Jewish construct for themselves.

You need to step back and re-read the scriptures without imposing yourself into the story.

Lets see. How would the Jews in Egypt have considered themselves? Jewish Egyptians? How do Jews in America consider themselves? As Jewish Americans?

It is best understood as "bless my people[Israel] in Egypt, Assyria, America, the whole world."

Israel is not land, Israel is its people in Jacob, the one seed, and they are today known as Jewish. All Jewish people are sons of Jacob and in the covenant family of Abraham, provided they have observed the rule of circumcision. Thus all the nations of the earth are blessed in the families of Abraham Jewish/Jacob/Israel.

You are incredible! The mental acrobatics required to do this must be exhausting.

Here is a little more context. Tell me which reference to Egypt means Egypt and which means Jews in Egypt. In 16, you are alleging that this is in reference to Jews in Israel. Verse 1 says the Lord will judge Egypt. Give me with the verse number where Egypt stopped meaning Egypt.

(Isa 19:1) The Lord Will Judge Egypt
Here is a message about Egypt:
Look, the LORD rides on a swift-moving cloud
and approaches Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him;
the Egyptians lose their courage.

(Isa 19:2) "I will provoke civil strife in Egypt,
brothers will fight with each other,
as will neighbors,
cities, and kingdoms.

(Isa 19:3) The Egyptians will panic,
and I will confuse their strategy.
They will seek guidance from the idols and from the spirits of the dead,
from the pits used to conjure up underworld spirits, and from the magicians.

(Isa 19:4) I will hand Egypt over to a harsh master;
a powerful king will rule over them,"
says the sovereign master, the LORD who commands armies.

(Isa 19:5) The water of the sea will be dried up,
and the river will dry up and be empty.
(Isa 19:6) The canals will stink;
the streams of Egypt will trickle and then dry up;
the bulrushes and reeds will decay,

(Isa 19:7) along with the plants by the mouth of the river.
All the cultivated land near the river
will turn to dust and be blown away.

(Isa 19:8) The fishermen will mourn and lament,
all those who cast a fishhook into the river,
and those who spread out a net on the water's surface will grieve.

(Isa 19:9) Those who make clothes from combed flax will be embarrassed;
those who weave will turn pale.

(Isa 19:10) Those who make cloth will be demoralized;
all the hired workers will be depressed.

(Isa 19:11) The officials of Zoan are nothing but fools;
Pharaoh's wise advisers give stupid advice.
How dare you say to Pharaoh,
"I am one of the sages,
one well-versed in the writings of the ancient kings?"

(Isa 19:12) But where, oh where, are your wise men?
Let them tell you, let them find out
what the LORD who commands armies has planned for Egypt.

(Isa 19:13) The officials of Zoan are fools,
the officials of Memphis are misled;
the rulers of her tribes lead Egypt astray.

(Isa 19:14) The LORD has made them undiscerning;
they lead Egypt astray in all she does,
so that she is like a drunk sliding around in his own vomit.

(Isa 19:15) Egypt will not be able to do a thing,
head or tail, shoots and stalk.

(Isa 19:16) At that time the Egyptians will be like women. They will tremble
and fear because the LORD who commands armies brandishes his fist against them.

~Steve

storytime · 09-30-2008, 05:28 PM

[QUOTE=sschlichter;5580327]

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Lets see. How would the Jews in Egypt have considered themselves? Jewish Egyptians? How do Jews in America consider themselves? As Jewish Americans?

It is best understood as "bless my people[Israel] in Egypt, Assyria, America, the whole world."

Israel is not land, Israel is its people in Jacob, the one seed, and they are today known as Jewish. All Jewish people are sons of Jacob and in the covenant family of Abraham, provided they have observed the rule of circumcision. Thus all the nations of the earth are blessed in the families of Abraham Jewish/Jacob/Israel.

Quote:

You are incredible! The mental acrobatics required to do this must be exhausting.

I know. And.. mental acrobatics are required for all ye who cherry-pick their way through the bible. :rolling:

Quote:

Here is a little more context. Tell me which reference to Egypt means Egypt and which means Jews in Egypt.

Well, you must consider the story being told at the moment. Prophets often hopped, skipped and jumped from Egypt to Assyria. One minute they'd be here, and one minute they'd be there, so to speak.

Have you yet found the scripture where Jesus made a covenant with the uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles?

When Joseph and Mary fled from Herod and took little Jesus into Egypt, do you think they were called Jewish or Hebrew people while in Egypt? Do you think God blessed the Egyptians or did he bless the family of Jesus?

Did Jesus make a covenant with the Egyptians?

Quote:

In 16, you are alleging that this is in reference to Jews in Israel. Verse 1 says the Lord will judge Egypt.

You must remember that the men who wrote the story were biased and hate filled, so they said the Lord judged Egypt by their standards; not that Egypt was actually judged by an invisible Hebrew god who was no more powerful than whatever god the Egyptians honored. The bible writers were simply cursing Egyptians, and probably because Egyptians would not submit to Hebrew traditions. Also, when reading the story remember that you are reading a one-sided story without hearing from the other side.

If I sent you a book that told the story of Bill Gates, that he was in fact a poor man, pennyless, lived on the streets of Mahattan, and he talked to a god and said "thus saith the Lord", and went on a cursing spree in protest of the New York subway, would you think to maybe examine the other side of the story about New York? Or just accept what you read in the book?

Quote:

(Isa 19:1) The Lord Will Judge Egypt
Here is a message about Egypt:
Look, the LORD rides on a swift-moving cloud
and approaches Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him;
the Egyptians lose their courage.

:rolling: Ah yes, poopetic justice seen through Hebrew eyes. No need for me to respond to the rest of your Isaiah scrolled wishful thinking.

sschlichter · 10-01-2008, 01:48 PM

[QUOTE=storytime;5580512]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

I know. And.. mental acrobatics are required for all ye who cherry-pick their way through the bible. :rolling:

Well, you must consider the story being told at the moment. Prophets often hopped, skipped and jumped from Egypt to Assyria. One minute they'd be here, and one minute they'd be there, so to speak.

Have you yet found the scripture where Jesus made a covenant with the uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles?

When Joseph and Mary fled from Herod and took little Jesus into Egypt, do you think they were called Jewish or Hebrew people while in Egypt? Do you think God blessed the Egyptians or did he bless the family of Jesus?

Did Jesus make a covenant with the Egyptians?

You must remember that the men who wrote the story were biased and hate filled, so they said the Lord judged Egypt by their standards; not that Egypt was actually judged by an invisible Hebrew god who was no more powerful than whatever god the Egyptians honored. The bible writers were simply cursing Egyptians, and probably because Egyptians would not submit to Hebrew traditions. Also, when reading the story remember that you are reading a one-sided story without hearing from the other side.

If I sent you a book that told the story of Bill Gates, that he was in fact a poor man, pennyless, lived on the streets of Mahattan, and he talked to a god and said "thus saith the Lord", and went on a cursing spree in protest of the New York subway, would you think to maybe examine the other side of the story about New York? Or just accept what you read in the book?

:rolling: Ah yes, poopetic justice seen through Hebrew eyes. No need for me to respond to the rest of your Isaiah scrolled wishful thinking.

That makes the point that you do not like the God of Israel, however you did not answer the question.

you ignored the question pretty well. I have no problem beleiving the people of Israel had no interest in Gentiles. Their book, however, seems to say otherwise. You keep claiming the book agrees with the people but are unable to make this passage agree with you (as well as the other 100 examples I gave you of God's relationship to the nations).

perhaps what you are attributing to the God revealed here is different from the one that is actually revealed because you ignore what it says. Which verse is where Egypt no longer refers to the Egyptians?

(Isa 19:16) At that time the Egyptians will be like women. They will tremble and fear because the LORD who commands armies brandishes his fist against them.
(Isa 19:17) The land of Judah will humiliate Egypt. Everyone who hears about Judah will be afraid because of what the LORD who commands armies is planning to do to them.
(Isa 19:18) At that time five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the LORD who commands armies. One will be called the City of the Sun.
(Isa 19:19) At that time there will be an altar for the LORD in the middle of the land of Egypt, as well as a sacred pillar dedicated to the LORD at its border.
(Isa 19:20) It will become a visual reminder in the land of Egypt of the LORD who commands armies. When they cry out to the LORD because of oppressors, he will send them a deliverer and defender who will rescue them.
(Isa 19:21) The LORD will reveal himself to the Egyptians, and they will acknowledge the LORD's authority at that time. They will present sacrifices and offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and fulfill them.
(Isa 19:22) The LORD will strike Egypt, striking and then healing them. They will turn to the LORD and he will listen to their prayers and heal them.
(Isa 19:23) At that time there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will visit Egypt, and the Egyptians will visit Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together.(Isa 19:24) At that time Israel will be the third member of the group, along with Egypt and Assyria, and will be a recipient of blessing in the earth.
(Isa 19:25) The LORD who commands armies will pronounce a blessing over the earth, saying, "Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"

~Steve

storytime · 10-01-2008, 05:23 PM

I'm simply not giving you the answers you want to hear.

Egypt was Egypt. So what? You want to portray Egypt as some wicked evil place, and Egyptians more contemptible than Israelites/Jews? I don't understand what you're after. So you'll have to be more clear.

Why should I like the god of Israel anymore or less than other gods believed by other people? What about Buddah? I don't believe in Buddah either, or the ancient goddess Diana, or Mercury or Jupiter, these popular in the bible days of Gentile Roman worship.

I'm not claiming anything. What I'm pointing out to you is that in the story, Jesus never made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Moreso, Jesus did not profess to be Lord to any but his brethren Jews. You fail to accept this observation because you are accustomed to believing something that is imposed by wishful thinking but not written in the text.

Again, in order to validate your claim of covenant inclusion you must provide the scripture where Jesus makes a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You have yet to provide anything other than your OT references to OT times concerning Judah and Israel.

And why did you think to prove a new covenant with Gentiles by bringing ancient Egyptians into the NT picture? It's amazing that you haven't gone to China with your version of the story.

sschlichter · 10-01-2008, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I'm simply not giving you the answers you want to hear.

Egypt was Egypt. So what? You want to portray Egypt as some wicked evil place, and Egyptians more contemptible than Israelites/Jews? I don't understand what you're after. So you'll have to be more clear.

Why should I like the god of Israel anymore or less than other gods believed by other people? What about Buddah? I don't believe in Buddah either, or the ancient goddess Diana, or Mercury or Jupiter, these popular in the bible days of Gentile Roman worship.

I'm not claiming anything. What I'm pointing out to you is that in the story, Jesus never made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Moreso, Jesus did not profess to be Lord to any but his brethren Jews. You fail to accept this observation because you are accustomed to believing something that is imposed by wishful thinking but not written in the text.

Again, in order to validate your claim of covenant inclusion you must provide the scripture where Jesus makes a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You have yet to provide anything other than your OT references to OT times concerning Judah and Israel.

And why did you think to prove a new covenant with Gentiles by bringing ancient Egyptians into the NT picture? It's amazing that you haven't gone to China with your version of the story.

(Isa 19:21) The LORD will reveal himself to the Egyptians, and they will acknowledge the LORD's authority at that time. They will present sacrifices and offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and fulfill them.
(Isa 19:22) The LORD will strike Egypt, striking and then healing them. They will turn to the LORD and he will listen to their prayers and heal them.

Please explain who the Egyptians are in this passage. You know exactly what I am asking. You contend the Jewish God has nothing to do with non-Jews yet I have shown you numerous passages of God's concern for all men. The Jewish God you are painting is different from the one painted by the law and prophets. Why is that?

I already answered your question about Jesus and Gentiles. You are dependant on the Apostles if you want to understand jesus, no other way around it. Apostles got their authority from Jesus. Jesus confirmed authority of the OT. You should consider this because the Egyptians Gods were not consistently invasive throughout history and the God who was said they never existed.

~Steve

storytime · 10-02-2008, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I'm simply not giving you the answers you want to hear.

Egypt was Egypt. So what? You want to portray Egypt as some wicked evil place, and Egyptians more contemptible than Israelites/Jews? I don't understand what you're after. So you'll have to be more clear.

Why should I like the god of Israel anymore or less than other gods believed by other people? What about Buddah? I don't believe in Buddah either, or the ancient goddess Diana, or Mercury or Jupiter, these popular in the bible days of Gentile Roman worship.

I'm not claiming anything. What I'm pointing out to you is that in the story, Jesus never made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Moreso, Jesus did not profess to be Lord to any but his brethren Jews. You fail to accept this observation because you are accustomed to believing something that is imposed by wishful thinking but not written in the text.

Again, in order to validate your claim of covenant inclusion you must provide the scripture where Jesus makes a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You have yet to provide anything other than your OT references to OT times concerning Judah and Israel.

And why did you think to prove a new covenant with Gentiles by bringing ancient Egyptians into the NT picture? It's amazing that you haven't gone to China with your version of the story.

(Isa 19:21) The LORD will reveal himself to the Egyptians, and they will acknowledge the LORD's authority at that time. They will present sacrifices and offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and fulfill them.
(Isa 19:22) The LORD will strike Egypt, striking and then healing them. They will turn to the LORD and he will listen to their prayers and heal them.

Please explain who the Egyptians are in this passage. You know exactly what I am asking. You contend the Jewish God has nothing to do with non-Jews yet I have shown you numerous passages of God's concern for all men. The Jewish God you are painting is different from the one painted by the law and prophets. Why is that?

I already answered your question about Jesus and Gentiles. You are dependant on the Apostles if you want to understand jesus, no other way around it. Apostles got their authority from Jesus. Jesus confirmed authority of the OT. You should consider this because the Egyptians Gods were not consistently invasive throughout history and the God who was said they never existed.

~Steve

As you didn't know who you were speaking of in Egyptians, you didn't specify Hebrews living in Egypt as strangers in their land, or Egyptian citizens.

The Isaiah quotes you offer are the wishful thinking of the prophet in his declaring that the Egyptians would be forced to acknowledge and worship his Hebrew god. Clearly they did not. The Egyptians are not shown to offer sacrifices or offerings to the Hebrew god nor make vows to him to fulfill them. Have you found textual evidence that the Egyptians either worshiped the Hebrew god in Egypt or traveled to Jerusalem to worship him there? Where is your bible quotes on this?

Would you consider that whatever misfortune happened to Egyptians the Hebrew prophet would give credit to his god for the mishap?

What if you read another prophet that said "The LORD will strike the Israelites, striking and then healing them. They will turn to the Pharoah and he will listen to their prayers and heal them" You seem to overlook that there were not only many gods (Pharoah was called a god), and many lords in those times (Princes were called Lords), and many prophets (wise men, sages) other than Hebrew mouthpieces.

Doesn't your bible demand two or three witnesses for the thing you profess to be true? Have you overlooked the part that said there were false prophets?

Your argument is that the Hebrew god cared for all men. My argument is that he did not, and that his concern was only for his namesake, Israel. After all, the story is written in its biased fashion to support the Hebrew god as loving only Jacob and the Hebrew prophets declaring their god as the most high god. You try to make Yahweh a universal god but if you do that, you are destroying the identity of Jews and their god by absorbing their tradition in the Gentile world of other gods and other beliefs.

The prophets protested against all other nations surrounding them. However, the biblical god claimed only one people as his own in Jacob/Israel. There is no other people that god claimed.

storytime · 10-02-2008, 04:13 AM

Steve, you said you had already answered my question about Jesus and Gentiles. You have not. You have yet to provide scripture evidence that Jesus made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. This should be a simple thing to do if you read Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn.

I think you should pay attention to the lie of Peter as he seems to be the first disciple that goes off the beaten path of Jesus instruction and imposes Gentile equality as inheritors of the promise.

You said: "You are dependent on the apostles if you want to understand Jesus, no way around it."

I'm not concerned with the apostles gospel at the moment. What I'm requesting from your bible teaching is proof that Jesus made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You have continually failed to provide that proof and yet continually make the claim that Jesus is your Lord and God and you are a receiver of the promised inheritance.

sschlichter · 10-02-2008, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Steve, you said you had already answered my question about Jesus and Gentiles. You have not. You have yet to provide scripture evidence that Jesus made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. This should be a simple thing to do if you read Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn.

I think you should pay attention to the lie of Peter as he seems to be the first disciple that goes off the beaten path of Jesus instruction and imposes Gentile equality as inheritors of the promise.

You said: "You are dependent on the apostles if you want to understand Jesus, no way around it."

I'm not concerned with the apostles gospel at the moment. What I'm requesting from your bible teaching is proof that Jesus made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You have continually failed to provide that proof and yet continually make the claim that Jesus is your Lord and God and you are a receiver of the promised inheritance.

The only picture you have of Jesus is from Peter and the apostles. If you do not beleive them then you will not get what you are asking from me because it only exists from the apostles. What could I show you from the gospels that was not provided by Jesus disciples? Without the apostles, you would not even know there was a Jesus. So, if Peter and all the disciples are liars then there is nothing.

However, now that I have answered your question again, you can tell me how is it that Peter is lying when he is concuring with Isaiah 19. While you are at it, here is another.

Why does Isaiah think all humankind will one day rejoice in one of the names for God?

(Isa 29:19) The downtrodden will again rejoice in the LORD;
the poor among humankind will take delight in the Holy One of Israel.

How is it that the Holy One of Israel will cause all humankind to rejoice. Perhaps Peter and Isaiah are telling the same lie, then?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-30-2008, 08:59 AM	#102
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	If men were required to be circumcised, how were the women included in that same covenant? Maybe under the headship of the husband?

10-01-2008, 05:23 PM	#106
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	I'm simply not giving you the answers you want to hear. Egypt was Egypt. So what? You want to portray Egypt as some wicked evil place, and Egyptians more contemptible than Israelites/Jews? I don't understand what you're after. So you'll have to be more clear. Why should I like the god of Israel anymore or less than other gods believed by other people? What about Buddah? I don't believe in Buddah either, or the ancient goddess Diana, or Mercury or Jupiter, these popular in the bible days of Gentile Roman worship. I'm not claiming anything. What I'm pointing out to you is that in the story, Jesus never made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Moreso, Jesus did not profess to be Lord to any but his brethren Jews. You fail to accept this observation because you are accustomed to believing something that is imposed by wishful thinking but not written in the text. Again, in order to validate your claim of covenant inclusion you must provide the scripture where Jesus makes a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You have yet to provide anything other than your OT references to OT times concerning Judah and Israel. And why did you think to prove a new covenant with Gentiles by bringing ancient Egyptians into the NT picture? It's amazing that you haven't gone to China with your version of the story.

10-02-2008, 04:13 AM	#109
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Steve, you said you had already answered my question about Jesus and Gentiles. You have not. You have yet to provide scripture evidence that Jesus made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. This should be a simple thing to do if you read Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn. I think you should pay attention to the lie of Peter as he seems to be the first disciple that goes off the beaten path of Jesus instruction and imposes Gentile equality as inheritors of the promise. You said: "You are dependent on the apostles if you want to understand Jesus, no way around it." I'm not concerned with the apostles gospel at the moment. What I'm requesting from your bible teaching is proof that Jesus made a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You have continually failed to provide that proof and yet continually make the claim that Jesus is your Lord and God and you are a receiver of the promised inheritance.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.